I can respect some Republicans, even though we would rarely agree.
I disagreed with the Republicans' lust for war on Iraq based on lies. I vehemently disagreed with the Bush/Cheney torture program.
There’s something in the conservative/Republican/authoritarian DNA (or amygdala), that has a high tolerance, and even enthusiasm, for punishment.
They love the “tough on crime” and “law and order” rhetoric of their leaders. And why not? It’s an effective political position. Republican Lite Democrats like Clinton and Biden were enthusiastic supporters of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. Clinton’s “triangulation” worked well enough to win him a second term. To his credit he did pass an assault weapons ban, albeit a lame temporary one.
If we take it a radical step beyond law and order into the realm of torture, the split becomes clear.
In terms of public acceptance of torture, you can imagine which demographic has the highest approval rate on torture. If you guessed “white male Republicans”, you would be correct.
Conservatives in general tend to favor harsh punishment. Especially for “other people” they fear, hate or misunderstand. That includes Democrats and progressives. They find great sport in taunting, harassing, insulting, and otherwise waging their psych-ops campaign to punish liberals. “Owning the libs” is what they call it.
They have considerable more tolerance for their own, of course, but their tolerance disappears when some of them fail to conform to the demands of an authoritarian leader like Trump. His attitude towards harsh and extreme punishment was shown by the intentional separation of immigrant children from their parents. He enthusiastically ramped up federal executions of prisoners. He praised a Republican for assaulting a journalist. He wanted to go “a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding”. The list is long, but you get the idea.
Now the radical Right is howling for punishment for a couple of their own, especially Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, for their refusing to toe the line on the Party of Trump’s seditious and authoritarian refusal to even have hearings to investigate January 6th.
Liz
has already been stripped of her leadership position for daring to say,
"My oath, my duty, all of our oaths, all of our duty are to the
Constitution and that will always be my focus, not politics," after Pelosi
first announced her appointment earlier this month.
Philip Bump wrote in the Washington Post:
At the White House on
Monday, McCarthy was asked about comments from some Republicans who suggested
that their party should participate more fully in the probe.
“Who is that? Adam and Liz?” McCarthy replied casually, looking over his shoulder. “Aren’t they kind of like Pelosi Republicans?”
And there you go. Liz
Cheney, of the Cheney Cheneys, is a “Pelosi
Republican,” not because she broadly sides with the Democratic leader on
matters of policy but, instead, because she sides with Pelosi on the idea that
the Capitol riot could use a bit more investigation. You know who voted with
Pelosi more than Cheney in the 116th Congress? McCarthy. Data from ProPublica
makes clear that McCarthy could be described as more of a “Pelosi Republican”
than the representative from Wyoming based on votes in the last Congress.
Not satisfied with removing her from leadership, the extremists want to punish her further.
(CNN)
A growing group of rank-and-file House
Republicans wants House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and GOP leadership to
punish Reps. Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger for accepting a position
from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to serve on the select committee investigating
the January 6 insurrection.
Not only do they want to strip Cheney and Kinzinger from their other committee assignments, they want to punish Nancy Pelosi as well. No doubt some of the more malevolent House coup supporters would have welcomed the hanging of the Speaker of the House. As we recall, Lauren Boebert tweeted about the Speaker’s movement during the coup, not long after tweeting, “Today is 1776!”.
The Radical Right white nationalist Freedom Caucus is already pressing McCarthy to file a motion to vacate Pelosi from the speakership. Radical Right authoritarian and House GOP conference chair Elise Stefanik wants to blame and punish the Speaker: “The American people deserve to know the truth. That Nancy Pelosi bears responsibility, as speaker of the House, for the tragedy that occurred on Jan. 6.”
It is the Authoritarian Way.
The nerve of that woman, wanting to investigate the same terrorists who screamed, “Hang Pelosi!” along with, "Hang Mike Pence!" How dare she exclude supporters of Trump’s Big Lie and resulting coup from the committee? She must be punished too.
But
there are still some Republicans who understand Trumpism is not conservatism.
Ten House Republicans stood for the Constitution and country by voting to
impeach Trump for incitement of insurrection.
They know Trump lied about the election and incited his insurrection. They know the truth.
That’s
really the only standard for Republicans to be welcome in the House select
committee to investigate the January 6 attack on the US Capitol. Why should
participants and co-conspirators be allowed to investigate themselves? If they
want a voice, let them spew their lies under oath as sworn witnesses.
CNN reports on why the pair are targeted for punishment:
Adam Kinzinger has been a vocal critic of Trump and was one of 10 House Republicans to vote for his second impeachment. Kinzinger served in the Air Force in Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom. He continues to serve in the Air National Guard as a pilot. “I’m a Republican dedicated to conservative values, but I swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution—and while this is not the position I expected to be in or sought out, when duty calls, I will always answer,” Kinzinger said in a statement accepting a position on the committee. “This moment requires a serious, clear-eyed, non-partisan approach. We are duty-bound to conduct a full investigation on the worst attack on the Capitol since 1814 and to make sure it can never happen again.”
Will
history eventually be kinder to both of them, or are they just disloyal RINO
“socialist appeasers”, for betraying their oaths to Donald Trump?
Oh, wait. They swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution, not Trump.
For that treacherous transgression and disloyalty to their Dear Leader, they must be punished. It is the Authoritarian Way.
For some reason the Party of Trump has a lot more tolerance for their Dear Leader’s loyal gang of terrorist vandals, felons, thugs, racists, white nationalists, Q-Anon true believers, Proud Boys, Nazis, Oath Keepers, Klansmen, and assorted radical Right terrorists from the military and law enforcement.
They first wanted to blame BLM and antifa for Trump’s coup. Then they compared the terrorists to “tourists”.
For some reason the Party of Trump wants to look the other way and deflect from the crimes and terrorist instigators of January Sixth. Not very “law and order” of them, is it?
Despite the efforts by Trump's Radical Right to undermine and block it, the House committee begins their investigation today, Capitol Police officers are the first to testify.
One has already asked the committee if anyone in power abetted the criminals. Officer Dunn: "There was an attack carried out on January 6, and a hit man sent them. I want you to get to the bottom of that."
Like major crime cartels and street mobs, the radical Right Party of Trump will defend their own, until the ones who got arrested take a plea, and inform on their leaders.
Likewise, those who offer aid to investigators will be targeted as well. As we’ve see from the radical Right, that is the greater offense, just begging for punishment.
I would like to hear from clear-eyed conservatives, who can rationally explain their anger and resentment for the two Republican supporters of our Constitutional rule of law and peaceful transition of power.
Is
there any chance of that?
Posts
24 comments:
I don't hate Cheney or Kizinger as I think they are following the dictates of their conscience. (something that is lacking is Pelosi) As for the political theater that the congenitally corrupt Pelosi is orchestrating, that is ALL this is. By all means, the FBI, US Marshals or whomever has authority should investigate the 1/6 riot and arrest and punish those that deserve it. Frankly, I am fairly sure this is what is indeed happening.
What is this "congressional investigation" going to gain that furthers this? Nothing. Not a damned thing. This is for the consumption of the leftist media to further blame Trump and hype up the leftist base. This accomplishes nothing. The only thing that this does is take congress members away from actually doing useful work and further dividing the nation. But then I may not be clear-eyed enough to offer a response to your partisan question.
1)
Darrell,
Thank you for your answer, and your very partisan deflection. And like it or not, it is a bi-partisan committee.
"I would like to hear from clear-eyed conservatives, who can rationally explain their anger and resentment for the two Republican supporters of our Constitutional rule of law and peaceful transition of power. Is there any chance of that?"
OK. You don't hate Cheney and Kinzinger. Either they have information you don't have, or they have a conscience you don't have, or both.
You didn't really answer the question regarding the hate for those two Republicans. Instead you attacked democrats and the investigation itself.
Perhaps you're unaware that Congress HAS the authority to investigate an insurrection, and gather evidence regarding a violent attack against it. It was terrorism by definition.
Perhaps you don't understand.
Terrorism: (Oxford) the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims
After his coup failed, Trump double downed on his Big Lie, and PRAISED his terrorist mob. “We had an election that was stolen. It was a landslide. But you have to go home now...we love you, you're very special."
Let me tell you the plain truth. Trump PRAISED his mob of terrorists.
Yet you are more angry at Democrats than you are at those who praise and defend terrorists.
I never heard any Democrat praise looters, vandals, thugs, and racists. And NEVER have they praised a mob of terrorists.
But that's your boy, Darrell. Bury your head in the sand all you want. Facts are facts. Reality is real.
You asked, "What is this "congressional investigation" going to gain that furthers this?" Your answer was, "Nothing".
There's no need for quotation marks. It is real and quite Constitutional. The American people want to know what happened. They want accountability.
You feel there's "nothing to gain" from witnesses and information. You see nothing to gain from hearing personal sworn testimony of how the Capitol Police, members of the Senate and House, their staffs, and journalists were TERRORIZED by Trump's mob
Perhaps you'd prefer NOT to hear of the day's evens at all.
Sworn testimony is NOT "partisan". There are perjury laws against false testimony.
It seems you don't want to hear facts, eye-witness testimony, and the whole truth. (We all know why.)
The Republicans emphatically rejected a bi-partisan, and even an independent investigation.
Why? Because their Leader instigated it. Because Republicans supported it.
2)
That is the simple reality of it all. If not for Trump's rally and march to "Stop the steal", "fight like hell" and "take back our country", on that particularly conspicuous day, there would have been no coup, no deaths, no injuries, no destruction, no terror, no insurrection, and no need for any investigation.
You once agreed Trump was responsible, but you seem to have decided to drink another round of Trump's Koolade to wash away the very notion of your Leader's accountability.
We can see your anger, accusations, and outrage are more targeted against democrats than against the terrorists. (Again, we know why.)
If Muslims, BLM, or antifa had stormed the Capitol, would you support a Congressional investigation?
Of course you would. If I'm wrong, tell me. I know I'm correct.
Please convince me the Republicans would pass on investigating an antifa or BLM attack on the Capitol. After all they DID try to blame them, as you once echoed.
As the New Guy says, "Come on, man".
It is up to you to find the intellectual, moral and patriotic courage to face the truth. Blaming, attacking and accusing Democrats for investigating Trump's terrorist attack on democracy amount to only deflection and rejection of the truth.
Your faith in Trump and fealty to his abettors puts you on the wrong side of history, democracy and decency.
Cheney and Kinzinger are acting on their sworn oaths and loyalty to the Constitution. They have a conscience. Look to their courage for examples of that loyalty and conscience.
I know you can do better, Darrell.
"congenitally corrupt Pelosi"
First off: Seriously, bravo. That's some vivid language.
Second off: What the F, Darrell? Congenitally corrupt? Is this some form of ironic performance art for you? There has to be some form of irony behind your language, as you're using it in defense of Donald J Trump. The very embodiment of modern political corruption.
Third off: Political theater is what you see in the gaslighting and misinformation we are all observing from very many R's right now. All the deflections, denials and slogans by the R's to distract from the facts of what we all watched on live television. How freaking cynical you are.
Fourth off: Don't pretend that the commission is some kind of unilateral effort. Honestly, the former President needs only to open his mouth to add to the excrement piled on top of his character. The Republicans had their chance to sit at the table. First in the bipartisan attempt that the Senate Republicans shut down. Second in the House investigation that McCarthy F'ed up by knowingly trying to insert firebrands and anger stokers like Jordan on the committee. THEN when Pelosi vetoed the bad-faith inclusion of what I hesitate to call hyper-partisans, McCarthy takes his ball and goes home. He pulls all his handpicked Republicans. EVEN STILL, Pelosi appoints two Republicans to the investigation ANYWAY. They don't need Cheney. They don't need Kinzinger. But they were added to lend bipartisan weight to the investigation INSPITE of and DESPITE the Republicans efforts to distract and deflect by calling this a partisan witch hunt.
"What is this "congressional investigation" going to gain that furthers this? Nothing. Not a damned thing."
So here we see the ostrich shoving its head in the sand. Darrell's already decided. The misinformed and lied to voters of the losing candidate for office can harm people and cause damage in a massive temper tantrum. I am glad you're so brazenly open about your disdain and hatred for our Republic and our Democratic process. Of course the stock response to this is always "But the BLM and Summer Riots!!!111". A disingenuous comparison. One group of people took to the streets spontaneously over injured and dead black people. The others' guy lost an election.
"This is for the consumption of the leftist media to further blame Trump and hype up the leftist base."
Speaking of head in the sand, so good of you to admit that you're not going to open your eyes to yet another opportunity to see what's happening. Just going to take the filtered version that makes you feel better about... uh... "conservative" ideals? I guess? You feel like your identity as a "conservative" is threatened by watching a raw stream from C-Span of the hearing? Be ignorant. Dismiss it as leftist media consumption. It's good that you openly admit that you don't at least consume the things you complain and rail against. Smart. Common sense right there. Why know anything about the things you scree against?
"The only thing that this does is take congress members away from actually doing useful work and further dividing the nation."
This talking point is so asinine. "Oh CoNGrEsS PeOpLe CaN't PoSsIbLy Do MuLtIpLe ThInGs At OnCe!!!111". It's even more asinine because I know for a damn fact, you know back when you were trying to "save common sense", that your opinion on this sort of investigation was a whole lot different during the Benghazi hearings. But, I'm not going to point out how hypocritical that is. Common sense dictates how hypocritical that is.
It's only the aggrieved RINOs and "conservatives" that are bloviating about "dividing a nation" because accountability is being demanded. Wasn't it a "conservative thought leader" that once declared that "Facts don't care about your feelings"? What happened to that?
As an aside, what happened to T.Paine? Bring back fake you, cause knee-jerk defend terrorists you makes me very UnChristian.
"If Muslims, BLM, or antifa had stormed the Capitol, would you support a Congressional investigation?" - Dave
There'd never be an investigation. Muslims, BLM and Antifa are too important as concepts or ethereal ideas to point at to scapegoat real, tangible issues. It's smoke and mirrors and the Darrell's of our country have fallen for the sleight of hand. And for some of them, I'm sure they are also victims of the sunk cost fallacy. They've advocated and agitated for the loser for so long they can't rationalize changing their mind. It all has to be for something, right? Well that something is transforming them into terrorist loving America haters.
Ain't that f'ing ironic.
TB3,
Why DO they hate America, our Constitution, and our democracy? Because Trump tells them to.
The important thing is, "It's NOT terrorism and NOT appeasement of terrorists if WE do it. LOOK! Corrupt commie Democrats! Hillary's emails!! Benghazi!! And Trump WON! The election was STOLEN! And he had nothing to do with the insurrection...I mean, what insurrection? There was no insurrection!"
Only his duped cult would believe Trump is not a pathological liar. Even worse are the vile authoritarians who know the truth, but propagate and benefit from the lies.
I don't think Darrell actually reads what I post at his blog, so I'll put this here as well.
1)
This is truly a horror scenario from the end of American democracy.
Our national nightmare that is Trump's ongoing coup is entering into a total darkness of evil. The former "law and order" Party of Trump sides with the terrorists.
First Trump lied about the election. Next Trump sent a mob to the Capitol to terrorize Pence and Congress into overturning the election. Then he PRAISED the terrorists, saying, “You’re special. We love you”.
So naturally, as every authoritarian cult does, it has come to this. Trump’s cult of radical Right white nationalists are openly emulating his embrace of the terrorists.
The day the Capitol Police testify about Trump's violent mob, the Insurrection Caucus publicly gives aid and comfort to the terrorists, while blaming Nancy Pelosi, naturally.
Washington Post Dana Milbank reveals how, as the Jan. 6 hearings begin, Republicans side with the terrorists.
~~~~
Six Republican members of the House, escorted by a man in a giant Trump costume bearing the message “TRUMP WON,” marched on the Justice Department Tuesday afternoon to speak up for those they called “political prisoners” awaiting trial for their roles in the insurrection.
“These are not unruly or dangerous, violent criminals,” Rep. Paul Gosar (Ariz.) proclaimed at a news conference outside DOJ headquarters. “These are political prisoners who are now being persecuted and bearing the pain of unjust suffering.”
Rep. Louie Gohmert (Tex.) speculated that “we have political prisoners here in America.”
They distributed copies of a letter alleging the Jan. 6 defendants had been denied “potentially exculpatory evidence” and subjected to “cruel and unusual punishment.” Their supporters waved signs proclaiming “Free the Jan. 6 Political Prisoners,” and “Jan. 6 Was an Inside Job.”
The lawmakers, ironically, had to cut short their defense of the insurrectionists, because demonstrators disrupted them with heckling, whistleblowing and signs (“Traitors Sit Down”).
The half-dozen lawmakers, including Matt Gaetz of Florida and Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, made explicit what has become more obvious by the day: Republicans stand with those who attempted a violent coup on Jan. 6. And it’s not just the wingnuts. House Republican leaders held a news conference before the hearing, blaming Jan. 6 not on seditionists but on Capitol Police and, particularly, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
With the Capitol Dome behind her, Rep. Elise Stefanik (N.Y.), the House Republican conference chair, proclaimed: “The American people deserve to know the truth: that Nancy Pelosi bears responsibility, as speaker of the House, for the tragedy that occurred on Jan. 6.” Stefanik charged that Pelosi “doesn’t want a fair or bipartisan investigation.”
Rep. Jim Banks of Indiana, one of the saboteurs House GOP leader Kevin McCarthy had tried to place on the select committee, announced that Capitol Police “weren’t trained” adequately and that “Nancy Pelosi is ultimately responsible.”
---
(There's more, sadly...)
2)
More examples of Republicans siding with the terrorists...
The Republican whip, Steve Scalise (La.) repeatedly accused Pelosi of a “coverup” about Jan. 6. And Rep. Troy Nehls (Tex.) denounced fellow Republicans Liz Cheney (Wyo.) and Adam Kinzinger (Ill.), for serving on the select committee. “Those Pelosi Republicans aren’t interested in the truth,” he alleged. “We’re interested in the truth.”
Right. Seven of the eight Republicans standing there had voted down an independent, bipartisan commission negotiated by the top Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee.
And now they claim Pelosi is the one blocking a fair, bipartisan investigation? All this while faulting the Capitol Police, who at that very moment shielded them with a ring of officers, barriers, vehicles and a canine unit.
Had the GOP leadership been watching the hearing instead of spinning yet another conspiracy theory, they would have seen what it means to put country before party. Cheney, at the hearing, warned that without accountability for Jan. 6, “this will remain a cancer on our constitutional Republic. . . . We will face the threat of more violence in the months to come and another Jan. 6 every four years.”
She challenged her colleagues: “Will we be so blinded by partisanship that we throw away the miracle of America? Do we hate our political adversaries more than we love our country?”
Police testified about their grievous injuries, the ferocious violence and racism of the armed attackers, and their fears that they would die that day defending democracy. Police officers, and lawmakers, wept. D.C. police officer Michael Fanone, beaten and tazed by the mob, expressed astonishment at “those elected members of our government who continue to deny the events of that day,” including “those very members whose lives . . . I was fighting so desperately to defend.”
But a number of Republicans expressed more sympathy for the attackers. “There are Americans all over this country who are being harassed, who are being targeted by law enforcement!” Gaetz, at the news conference outside the DOJ, said of the insurrectionists.
Rep. Andy Biggs (Ariz.) insisted that it was “a very small group that attacked the Capitol Police.” What really concerned Biggs was “how are these individuals being treated?”
The insurrectionists’ allies grew anxious as more hecklers arrived and unfurled signs calling them racists, rapists and traitors and “Pedophiles for Trump.”
“Wrap it up,” a worried staffer told the lawmakers. “We got to get out.” They fled to waiting vehicles, one of which sped off the wrong way on 9th Street NW. It swerved in front of oncoming traffic onto Pennsylvania Avenue amid a hail of honking horns.
~~~~~
They are traitors and they don't even know it.
In the authoritarian mind...
Ignorance isn't ignorance to the ignorant.
Delusion isn’t delusion to the delusional.
Racism isn't racism to the racist.
Treason isn't treason to the traitor.
A cult isn't a cult to the cult.
I'd like to say, "Shame on all of you radicalized True Believers of Q-Anon and Trump's lies.
But delusional fanatics are as beyond shame as they are beyond reason.
Federal law enforcement has charged at least 543 defendants in the attack on the Capitol, CBS News reported. Of those charged, 200 have been indicted, 17 have pleaded guilty to misdemeanors, and six have pleaded guilty to felonies.
Meanwhile, at least a dozen defendants have agreed to cooperate with law enforcement. The FBI has said it hasn’t identified more than 300 others suspected of engaging in acts of violence during the riot.
Prosecutors charged 235 defendants with corruptly obstructing, influencing, or impeding an official proceeding or attempting to do so. Prosecutors charged about 40 with conspiracy, according to CBS News.
Every last rioter that engaged in illegal activity at the capitol should be arrested, charged, and convicted. Perhaps you all have missed that part... again.
That said, of the tens of thousands of people at the rally, only 800 broke off to march to the capitol and riot.
Regardless, law enforcement is proceeding with the investigation and prosecution of these criminals, so again I ask the ignored question, what more can a congressional investigation add to this?
I submit to you, again, it is not about finding and punishing the guilty but rather grand political theater used to demonize all conservatives that may or may not have voted for Trump as potential insurrectionists and traitors. It is being used to further divide the country and ostensibly provide moral high ground to leftist Democrats, whom before this incident were all for defunding the racist police departments around the country. I guess, they only like the police that actually protect them.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolution/503/text?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22January+6th%22%5D%7D&r=1&s=1
Your question is easily answerable with minimal effort. What you are positing is completely conjecture and biased opinion which you've already decided before the commission was even finalized, I'm sure based on your "idiology", is a waste of time.
So, your submission that it's all about demonizing "conservatives" is overly defensive garbage. It's pretty telling that you have this visceral need to come to the defense of people that decided to do a terrorism on January 6th. No one called them "conservatives". They've been called insurrectionists and terrorists. Are they one in the same for you, Darrell? If you're feeling division, it's only because you've decided to feel that way because you're picking "conservatives" over Country. As for moral high ground, Republicans and "conservatives" ceded that concept when they/you elected and propped up a morally bankrupt billionaire.
As a side note: I'm not seeing the connection between conservatism and storming the Capitol cause your guy lost. Maybe you should entertain a different perspective in this whole thing.
I also submit to you, again, if this were political theater, you're only taking issue with theater now that it's Democrats spearheading it. You're knee-jerk reacting cause your team did bad and there's an attempt at finding accountability for a freaking change.
Darrell,
Thank you for responding, if not directly to questions.
"Every last rioter that engaged in illegal activity at the capitol should be arrested, charged, and convicted. Perhaps you all have missed that part... again."
Not true. And you left out the ringleaders who didn't go to the Capitol. You want to deny Congress their right to investigate their attackers, learn facts, get testimony, and identity the ringleaders and co-conspirators who aided and abetted the terrorists.
I already answered you question, "what more can a congressional investigation add to this?"
Yes, it is the duty of law enforcement to find and punish the terrorists. It is also the duty of Congress to investigate.
You want to deny them their Constitutional duty to discover facts and information. Shame on you. Benghazi!(TM) Amirite? We know. "It's OK If You Are Republican".
Why can't you see that? Because you want to blame democrats more than Trump and his terrorists for dividing the country.
Nobody is demonizing Republicans for seeing and seeking the truth. Read my Post's opening sentence for Pete's sake.
Supporters of the terrorists and Trump's Big Lie deserve to be seen as the radicalized dangerous threat they have become.
Everyone brainwashed by Trump's Big Lie is a potential terrorist. When their leader says "take back the country" and "fight like hell" to "stop the steal" they become a domestic terror threat. When they follow his orders, they and their leader ARE TERRORISTS.
There are two options. Disavow him, or sympathize the the terrorists' cause.
Before further deflections to "defund the police", please be honest here:
If Muslims, BLM, or antifa had stormed the Capitol, would you support a Congressional investigation?
Of course you would. If I'm wrong, tell me. I know I'm correct.
Until you correct me, you stand as a hypocrite.
"I guess, they only like the police that actually protect them."
Isn't THAT the point? Why should they like racist cops who kill unarmed Blacks? That is for the radical Right white nationalists.
You claim "only 800 broke off to march to the capitol and riot", but show us numbers like, "at least 543 defendants" and "more than 300 others suspected".
Your 800 number is preposterously low. There were well over a thousand and likely many more, though an accurate count is impossible. So naturally your estimate is LOWER than the numbers charged and suspected.
I recall your estimate of the damage they did being in the "hundreds of dollars".
The lowest estimate is $1.5 million. The Architect of the Capitol estimates $30 million.
As an engineer, I thought you would be better with numbers.
The number of arrests and others identified suspects is much lower than the number of terrorists. Why don't you call them what they really are?
18 U.S. Code § 2331 - Definitions
18 USC Ch. 113B: TERRORISM
From Title 18—CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
(5) the term "domestic terrorism" means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States;
Not only is your math way off, so is your radical Right blame for the victims. Many in that mob wanted to KILL democrats, and even Pence.
They are terrorists. Trump PRAISED them. And you agree with their cause. These are the facts.
I'll spare Darrell the task of denying the insurrections were conservative Christians and terrorists by definition. This makes Trump a terrorist supporter, by definition.
18 U.S. Code § 2331 - Definitions
18 USC Ch. 113B: TERRORISM
From Title 18—CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
(5) the term "domestic terrorism" means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States;
One of the officers quoted this to explain why he called the conservative "Christians" terrorists.
Darrell is incapable of even considering what they truly are by definition. Just "random criminal thugs" and assorted "tourists" will do.
Nothing to see here, Congress.
"One of the officers quoted this to explain why he called the conservative "Christians" terrorists."
Well, Darrell would know this but he didn't watch the hearing. You know. Because it's for leftist consumption that is meaningless for anything other than theater. If it's only theater, than Darrell would be well served to watch and observe this American Tragedy unfold. Unfortunately he seems to get his information and opinions from the Rotten Tomatoes of information sources.
No, wait. That's not fair. Rotten Tomatoes performs a service that's less biased and more honest than what Darrell consumes.
We could try to ask Darrell why the "theatre" committee even exists, but I don't think he can trace it back to January 6.
I've lost count of my unanswered requests for his evidence of a stolen election.
The investigation is just bad, cuz it makes his kind of people, fellow true believers, look like terrorists, er, I mean...tourists. Yes, that's it.
"Law and order" has its limits for the terrorists Trump praised, "You're special. We love you." Trump's terrorist supporters in the House are coming out of the woodwork to deflect from the investigation to show their concern for how those tourists are being so cruelly treated as "political prisoners".
Those good Conservative Christian Republicans are siding with the terrorists.
This has all got to be the dirty Democrats' fault, amirite?
Now the Radical Right has two new slogans inspired by domestic terrorism:
"You're special. We love you."
"Support the blue until the coup."
It's the Authoritarian Way.
"So Trump PRAISED the good Christian conservative terrorists, and Darrell is OK with that."
This is why I cannot have a good faith discussion with you, Dave. Nowhere have I stated that I support the rioters at the capitol EVER. I am NOT okay with that. You are so vehement in your hate that you twist words to serve your purpose. I don't know why I even bother.
TB3, I truly liked you and your comments in the past. We would disagree, but you were at least reasonable. I am sorry that you have bought into the leftist rhetoric and hate. This country is indeed probably irreparably divided. For me, I am done trying with those that do nothing but talk and never listen to why they also may find fault in themselves. Cheers! (Oh and your amygdala is showing, by the way, Dave.)
Darrell, you're misunderstanding what I said.
I said you are OK with Trump PRAISING the terrorists, NOT with their crimes.
I NEVER said you support the rioters at the capitol EVER. But you DO support their cause.
You've never said you were NOT OK with Trump PRAISING the terrorists. I'd think if it bothered you, you'd mention it.
But obviously the investigation bothers you more. Why is that?
You have a lot of blame for Pelosi investigating Trump's coup, but none for Trump being responsible for it. What do you think that tells us?
And where was your "good faith" in NOT responding to my point about you being in favor of Republicans investigating if BLM or antifa stormed the Capitol?
That seemed to have frightened you for some reason. We get it. We know why. You have radical Right double standards. This also indicates an authoritarian personality.
Too bad you're not able so simply state where you are, one way or the other.
You've certainly left us the impression of hypocrisy by your dismissal of my request. And acceptance of, or deflection from, Trump's praise for the terrorists tells us something as well.
You are radicalized, old buddy.
This is sad. Really sad.
I am sorry, Darrell. I haven't bought into anything. You can't call everyone you disagree with a "leftist". Or rather, labeling someone something is a dismissal and cognitive deflection and not a refutation. I am extremely reasonable. Except your attitude towards the embodiment of a politician with the attributes you derided Obama as having and your attitude toward the insurrection has truly shown that you've lost your ability to reasonably consider thoughts and ideas counter to what you've been groomed to believe. There are facts in life. You've somehow come under the impression that simply denying it means they are no longer facts. That's delusional and I'm sorry you've taken the Rudy Guilliani path. It's certainly served him well.
TB3,
Take heart. Darrell is sorry you abandoned reason and "have bought into the leftist rhetoric and hate".
Darned if I can find any examples, but Darrell has never bothered to show any evidence to support his accusations. We must simply accept our guilt on faith.
On the other hand, he is very adept at projection.(Oh and your amygdala is showing, by the way, Dave.)
This odd remark came after he got very upset over a perceived slight that wasn't there.
Maybe I'm mistaken.
Did you see where I accused Darrell of "supporting the rioters"?
I did say they were his kind of people, as in true believers. I did say he supported their cause, Trump's Big Lie. All of which are facts.
But he misinterpreted my statement, got mad, accused me of being "so vehement in your hate that you twist words to serve your purpose", then scampered off in a tizzy.
He didn't even show where I twisted words to serve my own purpose. Go figure.
It's so unlike him. ;-)
He said we "never listen to why we also may find fault in themselves".
If he won't tell us why, then that's on him. I do know I'm a smart-ass though. I admit it.
"Did you see where I accused Darrell of "supporting the rioters"?"
That's what I mean. Its the knee jerk defense he seems compelled to mount. No, the Jan 6th commission isn't an indictment of conservatives, unless of course, you think all conservatives are just one electoral loss away from being no better than ISIS. Did you hear democrats and liberals whine and complain about the benghazi hearings being out to smear liberals and democrats? No. Everyone was pretty f'ing aware it was to smear Clinton.
But this need to immediately circle the wagons just informs everyone of where loyalties lie. And it's a God damned shame Darrell's loyalties in insurrectionists, grifters and perpetuating hate rather than truth, justice and America.
Sunk cost fallacy, man.
TB3,
"No fallacy left behind."
It's a cult. When they believe any member is threatened, or even criticized, they go into groupthink defense mode. Yes it's the over-reactive enlarged amygdala they all have.
It like an inversion of the Q-Anon thing. "Where we go one, we go all."
"Where we get hurt and threatened one, we get hurt and threatened all", or some cult variation.
Always feeling threatened. Always feeling hated. Always feeling angry. Always, and I mean always, being the victims. Trump is America's Sorest Loser and Biggest Victim. All that rage is absorbed and transmitted by his cult. All blame is to be directed at the others.
They don't want to debate policy. They don't want good faith discussion.
They want to blame and accuse. They need to dominate or denigrate the "others". Failing that, they run away and stew in more lies and anger for those others who don't share their belief in Trump and their radical Right agenda.
They can't comprehend the fact we don't hate them. We do hate their hatred, and their radical Right white nationalism, their lies, and their Trumpism. We understand them, but they don't understand us. THAT's their problem.
They are helpless whenever I ask for evidence to support their accusations. Accusations should be enough on their own, but only from the radical Right. Only dumb libs want evidence and reason.
And they don't WANT to understand us, or anybody, or anything outside their cult's indoctrination bubble.
"Open mind, meet closed mind... Closed mind? Where did you go, closed mind? Fleeing from the evil open minds you don't understand again? Running back to the reassuring comfort of Trump's lies?"
Yup. Fight, freeze, or flight is all the amygdala triggers.
That's a lot of anger, fear and hate they need to project. This is the radicalization that is Trumpism and it brought us his coup.
Let’s review a few points Darrell would NOT address.
First is my point that infuriated him.
“So Trump PRAISED the good Christian conservative terrorists, and Darrell is OK with that.”
It was about being OK with Trump PRAISING the terrorists. For some reason Darrell won’t condemn Trump for that praise.
So instead of addressing his being OK or not OK with Trump’s praise, he attacked me for accusing him of being OK with the terrorists.
The other question he wanted to avoid was this:
“If Muslims, BLM, or antifa had stormed the Capitol, would you support a Congressional investigation?”
Is he a hypocrite or not? I expect a hypocrite would evade the question. He evaded the question.
Darrell had a question of his own.
He asked, "What is this "congressional investigation" going to gain that furthers this?" Your answer was, "Nothing".
I replied:
There's no need for quotation marks. It is real and quite Constitutional. The American people want to know what happened. They want accountability.
You feel there's "nothing to gain" from witnesses and information. You see nothing to gain from hearing personal sworn testimony of how the Capitol Police, members of the Senate and House, their staffs, and journalists were TERRORIZED by Trump's mob
Perhaps you'd prefer NOT to hear of the day's events at all.
Sworn testimony is NOT "partisan". There are perjury laws against false testimony.
It seems you don't want to hear facts, eye-witness testimony, and the whole truth. (We all know why.)
The Republicans emphatically rejected a bi-partisan, and even an independent investigation.
Why? Because their Leader instigated it. Because Republicans supported it.
After pitching some very weak math on the numbers of the mob, he accused me of ignoring his question. He just didn’t like the answer.
That said, of the tens of thousands of people at the rally, only 800 broke off to march to the capitol and riot.
Regardless, law enforcement is proceeding with the investigation and prosecution of these criminals, so again I ask the ignored question, what more can a congressional investigation add to this?
I submit to you, again, it is not about finding and punishing the guilty but rather grand political theater used to demonize all conservatives that may or may not have voted for Trump as potential insurrectionists and traitors. It is being used to further divide the country and ostensibly provide moral high ground to leftist Democrats, whom before this incident were all for defunding the racist police departments around the country. I guess, they only like the police that actually protect them.
NBC Legal Analyst and Former 30-yr federal prosecutor Glenn Kirshcner also answered the question.
"The committee can investigate things that are beyond the scope of DOJ investigations (like communication failures throughout government) & can legislate where appropriate. But simply exposing to public view what happened on 1/6 can lead to accountability. One of the benefits of these public hearings is that We The People will get to see witnesses testify about who funded, who organized and who incited the insurrection (though we’ve already seen how Trump, Don Jr., Rudy and Mo expressly incited the violence). The DOJ grand jury investigation is secret, shielded from public view. So even though the prosecutors at the DC US Attorney’s Office undoubtedly are investigating the funders, organizers and inciters, we won’t get to see any of it until it’s revealed during public trials. But with the Select Committee hearings, we’ll get to see it far sooner. And that is information voters can use."
https://twitter.com/glennkirschner2/status/1421091012370436098
The key word that Glenn and I used was, “accountability”. No wonder Darrell deflected to more accusations for Democrats.
This may enlighten us a bit on why Trumpers continue to defend Trump The Indefensible:
With the exception of those who voted for Trump because of his stance on taxes, his hard-core supporters are generally motivated by emotion, not by rational thought or considered, informed judgment. That makes it tricky to sway them away from their rabid obeisance toward the ex-president.
No amount of cajoling or even reasoned persuasion will sway them from the vice-like grip that Trump has on them. The schism that imposes on our body politic should not be underestimated.
Trump was always going to be dangerous, but by seeding sedition in the hearts of his acolytes, he has unleashed equally dangerous impulses in a whole lot of others.
Shaw,
Yes, the toxic disease of Trumpism may still prove to be lethal to our democratic republic.
It was only a matter of time when the radical Right had an authoritarian demagogue in the White House. No doubt more wait in the wings.
Murdoch, FOX(R), and hate radio have been fertilizing their pasture with toxic bullshit for decades.
"Government is the problem. Tax cuts for the rich will "trickle down". Greed and lies, always have a home in authoritarianism.
"Job killing regulations" have been gutted for polluters, to poison both the planet and American brains.
Tyranny requires having control of information.
The corporate news networks became "liberal media".
"Liberal media" became "fake news".
Until finally, journalists became the "enemy of the people".
Their lies have born their fetid fruit, and it is fascism. Americans were ready to welcome their new Hitler with their Bible-thumping, brandished guns, and open arms.
Most of us had better soon realize the Right is winning their war on democracy and equality. This means our war on fascism will continue for the long haul, for as long as the authoritarian personality curses humanity.
We'll never see the end of it. Especially if they win it all.
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