Mitt Romney told a little “joke” in his stump speech in Michigan on Friday.
"I love being home in this place where Ann and I were raised, where both of us were born," he said. "Ann was born at Henry Ford Hospital; I was born at Harper Hospital. No one’s ever asked to see my birth certificate. They know that this is the place that we were born and raised."
Some joke.
At least Republicans call it a joke. I wonder what they’d call it if Obama said, “I’ve been married to the same woman for twenty years. No one’s ever asked to see how many wives I have.”
“Whoa, thar, pardner, ya done gone too fur", I suspect we’d hear. “That thar’s a pickin’ on a man’s religion. Ya’all need to shut up ‘bout us a clingin to our guns and Bibles, too."
But it’s ok for Republicans to pick up one of the most hateful and divisive themes of intolerance in our politics and make a “joke”, though isn’t it?
Of course, it's ok if you're a Republican.
Was it even a joke? Or was it a “dog whistle” to keep the ignorant racists in his camp?
The Washington Post asked a few members of Romney’s audience about the birther remark.
Still, several voters interviewed after Romney and Ryan ended their rally Friday in Commerce said they interpreted Romney’s comment as a swipe at Obama.
“How did I read it? Well, there’s a lot of controversy about where Obama was born,” said Annie Lehmann, 59. “But that’s a secondary issue at this point. He’s got to fix the economy.”
Susan Cardel, 51, said she thought Romney’s comment was “hysterical.”
“That is still a big issue, isn’t it?” Cardel said. “I think it is, that Obama wasn’t born in America. I think Romney was just making a statement. He wasn’t trying to be mean or anything.”
Jim Gorcya, 72, said he read Romney’s comment as a suggestion that Obama’s birth certificate is not real.
“Obama doesn’t have one,” Gorcya said. “He wasn’t born here, and he can’t find his. Romney’s got a birth certificate. Obama can’t find his. If Obama was a real citizen, he would show it.”
If it was a joke, it was inappropriate, and lame. It was as inappropriate and lame as my hypothetical one above. Either way, it is not his privilege to go there. Republicans can make all the jokes they want about what Obama said or has done.
Making light of a falsehood, one manufactured and propelled by racist hate that could only appeal to bigots, is outside the bounds of decency.
But Republicans never could win elections by being decent, could they?
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147 comments:
i wouldn't try to make an argument sound logical by putting words into another persons mind. it makes you look foolish.
Griper,
I agree.
That's why my words were that of a hypothetical reaction by a hypothetical character to a hypothetical "joke".
I do tend to employ a bit of literary license on occasion to express my individual style.
That is also why I quoted real words from real audience members.
It's a total non-issue, but it is fun watching you regressives try to make it into one. And it was rather humorous.
Your comment about multiple wives only reveals your ignorance of the tenets of modern Mormonism. However, you'll find that Obama won't bring up the multiple-wives scenario since his (purported) "father" Barack Obama from Kenya did in fact have two wives. It was customary at the time for a Kenyan man who married on non-Kenyan woman to also have a Kenyan wife. One democrat shill who tried to 'go there' on Romney was very quickly hushed up.
The birther issue is not "one of the most hateful and divisive themes of intolerance in our politics" as you described it. One of the most hateful and divisive tactics in our politics is the class warfare meme Obama and his regressive socialist lemmings are trying to use against the American People, to divide them and cause one group to hate the other. That is one reason that the democrat party has become the "party of Hate".
But you would know racist hate, Dubya, since it is the driving force behind your "hypothetical joke" as well as the driving force behind your view of conservatives in general.
Ah, F&B,
How dependable and loyal you are to the Right’s favorite new Big Lie, that it’s the liberals who are the real racists. Yeah, we heard Rush tell you that one a long time ago. It’s getting old, like the rest of your lies.
Your programming is wasted on addressing my hypothetical joke. You either missed the point, or are distracting.
birther issue is not "one of the most hateful and divisive themes of intolerance in our politics" as you described it....
Says the tea bagging corporate shill for upward redistribution of wealth. Buffet told us who’s winning the class war. That should be a clue for those who haven’t figured that out yet, and who need to learn which party represents only the rich and which party represents the rich and the rest of us when convenient.
Of course, race-baiting is an old favorite for Right winged rich white guys like most Republicans. Nothing new there. So is red-baiting, fear-baiting, hate-baiting, and every other propaganda technique that divides Americans into dupes of Big Money and those with rational understanding of their self interests and financial well being.
But stirring hate is a Republican/radical Right specialty. They love their trusty “mobilization of resentments”.
You are no different as a loyal party operative. We can all sense the delight you take in calling Obama a hateful socialist as you dismiss the racist ignorance of the birthers.
You banner is clear, sir.
By the way, did you actually listen to the crowd reaction?
That wasn’t laughter. The crowd cheered wildly.... like at a rally with a speaker reminding them who to hate and blame for everything. They rejoiced in the mean spirited pandering to birtherism.
Romney recently said he’s always been himself. “I am what I am”. Yes, he is still the asshole who hoses dogs and packs them into hurricanes force winds. He’s still the snooty aristocratic high school bully knocking a kid to the ground and cutting his hair.
It’s about character.
The thinly veiled hate is obvious. Why don’t you tell us what was so funny about it?
Wow Dave. For a minute I thought you had Chris Matthews writing a guest post for you. You really need to take a deep breath, buddy. It was a joke… just a harmless little joke. Just like the one Obama himself made about his birth certificate, which actually was funnier than Romney’s joke. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/03/obama-jokes-about-birth-certificate-at-st-patricks-day-reception/
The fact that you and the left see racism in every joke or criticism of Obama really does speak to a hyper-sensitivity towards race that most normal people just don’t have. When I look at a person, I see a person. I don’t see a black person, or a white person, or a brown person. For the party that is hypothetically not the racist party, why is it that you all categorize people by the color of their skin pigmentation, sir?
Oh, and regarding polygamy, I wouldn’t go there as a joke. After all, while Romney’s great-great grandfather was indeed a polygamist, so was Obama’s father.
As for the Republicans being decent and not being hateful to win elections, do you mean like not falsely accusing their opponent of actually being responsible for killing a man’s wife through his actions? Do you mean like that, Dubya?
TP,
Ha! (My Matthews imitation.)
It was a joke… just a harmless little joke.
So where’s the humor in pandering to the hate and ignorance of birtherism? Please.
As I indicated, Obama is entitled to joke about what his opponents do or say, just as his opponents are entitled to joke about what Obama does and says.
Romney’s playing the birther card is out of the realm of simple decency. So would Obama accusing Romney of murder. But the latter didn’t happen, did it? No it did not.
The fact that you and the left see racism in every joke or criticism of Obama
So that is a “fact” eh? Pompously presenting your false cult beliefs as reality is the only fact I see in that one.
why is it that you all categorize people by the color of their skin pigmentation, sir?
And just where have I done that, sir?
Speaking of categorizing, as we all know, your party loves to categorize, the “earners and the moochers”.
I prefer categorizing the economic elites and the rest of us.
You seem to believe the rich deserve more, and its ok that the rest of us get less for that to happen.
From Bloomberg of all places:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-26/republicans-should-stop-talking-about-moocher-class.html
Republicans Should Stop Talking About Moocher Class
Radio talk-show hosts and conservative bloggers refer to Obama’s call for higher taxes on the rich as a war on the productive class. Smart executives accuse Obama of being a closet socialist, siphoning off their money to give to the slackers.
To all of the above, the moocher class -- this election year’s agitprop -- is the country’s biggest problem. It’s not.
...U.S. incomes have stagnated for a decade, and that inequality has skyrocketed. The top-earning 1 percent of households now bring home about 20 percent of total income, versus about 10 percent in 1970.
.... the U.S. middle class just experienced a lost decade, shrinking for the first time since World War II.
The elites have gone from taking 10% of total income up to 20%. They have the entire Republican Party working for their interests.
Still not enough for the “oppressed” aristocratic elites? Let’s toss in the considerable number of corpo-dems to insure a dysfunctional opposition to the Right.
Still not enough? How much is enough? 100% fealty of both major parties? 40% of all income? 90%?
How about all of it? Is that the American Dream?
Or neo-feudalism?
You let us know, ok?
Dang, Dave. That was a good deflection and obfuscation of the original issue you posted, sir. Unfortunately for you, I do occasionally tune in to the DNC useful-diots at PMS-NBC so I am familiar with the tactic and am not going to fall for it.
I guess I missed Romney’s pandering to hate and ignorance with his joke. Romney has said that he rejects “birtherism” so I am going to take the comment as it was meant… all in jest. The fact that the left has to focus on such non-issues instead of the economy and other real issues is quite telling. I guess since Obama’s record is one of ruin and destruction, he really cannot run on it and must try to distract with cries of “birtherism” or implications of Romney not paying his taxes, etc.
Oh, and by the way, Obama surrogates with ties to the White House via Stephanie Cutter did absolutely imply that Romney was responsible for the death of a man’s wife because he lost his job and health insurance accordingly. Never mind the fact that the wife still had her job and health insurance and died six years later. Yeah, they didn’t use the word “murder” but the entire implication was the Romney was responsible for her death.
As for your continuing occupy-type class warfare rhetoric, I really don’t care to engage in that argument. Let’s just say that the left’s economic knowledge is woefully inadequate. The economy and the money to be earned within it is not a zero-sum game. Just because someone earns more money does not mean that there is now less money for somebody else. Further, I fail to understand the logic of the left when they claim it is greedy for a person to want to keep as much of the money he has earned through his own hard work, but it isn’t greedy for those occupy types that refuse to work to covet that money for themselves and decry the unfairness of it all. I know there are exceptions to the rule on both sides of the aisle, but ultimately it comes down to the story of the ant and the grasshopper.
TP,
Dang, indeed.
Deflection? That is your own projection. I asked you, “where’s the humor in pandering to the hate and ignorance of birtherism”?
As with F&B, the cat’s got your tongue. Just what’s so funny about that? If it’s such a no-brainer, even you can explain the humor. Instead you, sir, deflected and distracted. Well?
So now “surrogates imply” is the same as the spoken words from the candidates? I’m pretty sure Myste and I explained your tendency to rely on the false equivalence fallacy.
Besides, the ads you refer to were accurate on the vulture capitalism practiced by Romney’s Bain. He directly profited, or as you put it, “through his own hard work”, from the misery of others. Bottom line.
We know what you mean by “Obama’s record”. It’s the collapse of our economy under the Bush administration, that you blame on Obama the “Marxist” and Bush the “progressive”.
You do realize only the most radical Right wing ideologue would buy into that cult dogma.
I didn’t know Warren Buffet was an “occupy type” who’s “economic knowledge is woefully inadequate”.
I guess we’d better listen to a guy who thinks Bush was a progressive and Obama’s a Marxist instead.
And your additional ideological babble about a zero-sum game is meaningless, when the facts show the elites are prospering as the rest of us lose.
Get real, now.
I wonder what they’d call it if Obama said, “I’ve been married to the same woman for twenty years. No one’s ever asked to see how many wives I have.”
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Romney only had one wife?
Just say'n.
If you want to get hyped up about Romney's joke, be my guest. Its an election year, both sides have to amp up the rhetoric. My only objection is that with all the fun raising Romney has coming in, he couldn't come up with something better.
I'd like to hear "No one ever suggested I want to emulate Bill Ayers."
Free,
It was hypothetical. Something to reflect the bigotry towards Mormons to compare to the bigotry against Obama.
Not sure what’s so “hyped”. Romney made a poor attempt at humor using a hate-mongering reference to birtherism.
That’s just what is.
And it fits his character as a job killing antagonist to the working class, animal abusing, scissor-snipping, bullying elitist.
Gene,
You nailed it.
Just because they pull the wool over their own eyes doesn’t mean we can’t clearly see what they’re doing.
They are the party of Limbaugh, Norquist, Rove and a rogues’ gallery of anti-social, Big Money elitists.
And damn right, there are plenty of racists among them and those courted by their political machine.
What kind of party and political operation would tolerate a hateful fool like Beck saying “Obama is a racist who hates white people”?
The same party and political operation that now needs to say “Liberals are the real racists”.
Lying projection is their specialty. They are a cult of racists, sociopaths and silk-suited thugs in service only to the elites.
And it fits his character
And of course he has none. But then again neither does Obama, so if that is your reason for voting for Mr. Obama I'm lost. Well, other than your commitment to blind party loyalty, which I have never understood nor even want to. It stands to reason that being a Democrat, you could likely work to change things within your own party far better than in the Republican party. But nah... too much trouble. Its easier for you to complain about Republicans. I think this satisfies your need to rectify the dilemma you are currently on the horns of. You know good and well Obama is a pretty indefensible, so you need permission so to speak for voting for him. To vote for corporate bail outs, to vote for indefinite detention without trial, to vote for limitations on free speech.
Romney hatred gives you that permission I suppose.
Of course I'm speculating, but I'm starting to think thats your M-O.
Romney knew exactly what he was doing when he made that "joke". He was pandering to the basest instincts of his base and it worked... just look at the way the crowd reacted.
Your hypothetical analogy of what the righties would do if President Obama made a Mormon joke is on point. Like you said and so do I, IOKIYAR.
You crack me up Dubya. You toe your party's line without fail, then you say that is what the republicans are doing. You broadcast latent racist concepts and stereotypes then accuse republicans of being racists.
Romney cracks a harmless joke and you are up in arms, beside yourself with faux anger and disgust, but Obama cracks a joke about Romney's dog and he gets a pass. By the way, I'll bet Romney's dog would rather take a ride on top of Romney's car than on top of Obama's grill.
If you want to bring up Character, Bring It On! If this election boils down to character, Romney will win in a landslide. Easily.
It isn't surprising that the liberal regressive socialists of the Odumbo party still can't run their god-king on his record. All you guys did for eight years when Bush was President was bash him every chance you got. In fact, he has been out of office for nearly four years and that's still all you have. The only good thing you can come up with about democrats is to use lies and deceit to bash republicans.
And you're still trying to blame President Bush for Obama's Failure.
Even after all these years.
I don’t hate Romney. However, you’ve said that you do, as I recall.
Loathe would be a better way of putting it.
But I don’t plan on voting for Obama. I plan on voting my conscience.
Good for you. I'm certainly not voting for Romney. I look at a vote as consent- and I can't consent to either of these assholes.
Free0352: "I look at a vote as consent- and I can't consent to either of these assholes."
Ah, something we both can agree upon...
A number of members of the Radical Left-Wing group Code-Pink attempted to "arrest" Condi Rice at the Republican National Convention.
Why did they single out a black woman?
There is so much Hate-filled Racism and Misogyny coming from the left it is truly despicable.
Free,
As I mentioned before, I voted for Clinton the first time, but not again. Not much of a Democrat am I?
F&B,
Now your panties are in a wad over a symbolic gesture. My goodness, you guys are so sensitive for all the tough talk.
Why did they single out a black woman?
There is so much Hate-filled Racism and Misogyny coming from the left it is truly despicable.
Are you that ignorant? Code Pink: “Women For Peace” accuse Rice of lying us into war, and you call that misogyny? What is racist about that? Oh, we know, we know. They’re liberals, therefore, they are racists. (Limbaugh koolade point)
truly despicable More classic projection. Nothing despicable about war mongering by sowing lies about “nukular aluminum tubes” and ominous threats of “mushroom clouds” eh?
Once a koolade drinking true believer, always a koolade drinking true believer.
You still haven’t explained how the hateful birhter “joke” was funny. Why not?
Since you made such an effort, let’s assess your job performance as a shill for the Right.
First wave: Defense of the indefensible and loyalty to the Party of the elites:
Romneys birther “joke” is harmless (but humorless and full of malicious innuendo to appease the racists and hate groups)...Check
Romney’s animal abuse, bullying and lying are marks of “character”...Check
Second wave...the usual accusations:
“Toe the party line”: ..Check.
Liberals are the real racists...Check
“Use lies and deceit to bash republicans” (unspecified and unsubstantiated)...check
“And you're still trying to blame President Bush for Obama's Failure” (Nothing is the Republicans fault, it is all Obama’s fault)...Check
So what did Bush leave Obama?
Stock Market Closing Prices – January 20, 2009
Dow Jones Industrial Average ( DJIA ) Close - 7949.09
Nasdaq Stock Market Close - 1440.86
S&P 500 Close - 805.23
Read those again so it sinks in.
Now look at these numbers.
Stock Market Closing Prices – August 28, 2012
Dow Jones Industrial Average ( DJIA ) Close- 13102.99
Nasdaq Stock Market Close – 3077.14
S&P 500 Close – 1409.30
Looks like somebody has been doing well since January 2009.
How’s that for “lies and deceit”?
How much support was offered by Republicans for Obama’s attempt to repair the Bush/GOP/corpo-dem mess?
Zero. In fact obstruction and dedication to ensuring Obama’s failure, and that of America, was the Republican political plan. Perhaps Obama saved the country from depression, with no help, and only hindrance, from the greedheads on the Right.
It’s as if they hate America. Imagine the howls of outrage and accusations of treason from Republicans if the Democratic Party behaved like Republicans, and did everything they could to ensure Bush was a failure.
Instead, it seems their cooperation with Republicans only helped make the real failure possible.
Congratulations. You qualify as a loyal shill for the party of economic elites in opposition to the American people.
Well done. You’ve earned your pay.
As I mentioned before, I voted for Clinton the first time, but not again. Not much of a Democrat am I?
Thats funny, I was too young to vote for him in 1992, but I did in 1996. Don't regret that vote either. Clinton was hardly perfect, but he knew how America works and whats important.
So what did Bush leave Obama?
So Obama got a mess? Firemen inherit messes too, and you don't see them throwing gasoline on them.
Firemen inherit messes too, and you don't see them throwing gasoline on them.
Yeah, he did just that with the Patriot Act's surveillance and suppression, and in Afghanistan. I can't quite see the stimulus spending being as destructive to freedom and human lives as those "fires".
Free0352: "Clinton was hardly perfect, but he knew how America works and whats important."
Yeah, he knew what was important for the elite. Clinton was one of many in a long line of corporatist presidents.
Clinton's wife is also...as is her boss.
What Obama should have replied:
"Yeah, but nobody ever asked to see my tax returns. I produced my birth certificate- now it's your turn, Mitt."
And by the way, to the person who said "
It’s as if they hate America. Imagine the howls of outrage and accusations of treason from Republicans if the Democratic Party behaved like Republicans, and did everything they could to ensure Bush was a failure."
I agree with you, but the Dems didn't have to do that- Bush and Cheney did it all on their own.
Clinton's flaws were all about foreign policy... well that and lying under oath. His domestic policy was livable, and his budget sense is lacking today. He understood that to pull out of the 92 recession he had to get government in order, and the man made about 50% of that happen. He cut spending, and yes... even raised taxes. But not before he made those cuts. And it worked. He presided over the largest economic expansion in American history. Government didn't make that happen, but Clinton knew enough to get out of the way. He provided American enterprise with a stable, predicable and relatively ethical government... save his lying under oath. So I won't take that away from him. The policy I support is much more similar to Bill Clinton's than Mitt Romney... and certainly nothing like Obama's.
What Obama should have replied:
"Yeah, but nobody ever asked to see my tax returns. I produced my birth certificate- now it's your turn, Mitt."
And Mitt could reply- "You'll see those returns when we see those Fast And The Furious documents."
But I bet he's saving that comeback for the debates.
I can't quite see the stimulus spending being as destructive to freedom and human lives as those "fires".
You don't see him putting 3 trillion dollars on the tax payers collective credit card as destructive? Well, you will when China and the FED start forcing austerity on us the way Germany does Greece. A lot more countries have gone under due to financial mismanagement than due to war historically.
I have nothing against jokes and political incorrectness. But Romney's "birth certificate" joke wasn't a joke. It was a mating call to the millions of dumber-than-dirt Birthers who were afraid Romney isn't far enough to the Right.
And the mating call was heard loud and clear.
It was obviously a dog whistle. It was meant to send a message to the 23 percenters. It was meant to excite, energize and tell them Romney feels their resentment and shares it.
With every look at the latest polls, I'm sure, Romney and his people feel more desperate to squeeze every last vote out of Bush's base, out of racist tea partyers, out of every last Limbaugh Listener and Fox viewer. That's because Romney's support among women and Hispanics is scary now and harbingers of future election-year disasters. But compared to Romney's support among African Americans, his women and Hispanics numbers look fabulous. When you're running for president, zero can be a very big number, big enough to spell disaster in this election.
Of course, that's what the multi-state push to keep large numbers of African Americans and other "undesirables" from being able to vote is all about. That's what the ironically named True the Vote campaign to intimidate undesirables who make it through the obstacle course is all about.
They're not our kind. They're not like us. They don't share our patriotism and our values. They're not the people our founding fathers had in mind to choose our leaders, much less be our leader. We have to show them. We have to put them back in their place and keep them there.
Those are sentiments just below the Republican/tea party/libertarian/movement conservatives surface. And sometimes those sentiments erupt, like pus from a boil.
GE,
They failed America.
As Bush/Cheney largely succeeded, the nation lost. Their successes in stealing the first election, their tax cuts, corporate crony givaways, wars, surveillance state measures, etc. are failures for America.
Tom,
We know it was not a joke. It was a malicious jab and a pandering to the worst of us.
SW,
You're right. Their sentiments are quite toxic. These people are blinded by Obama Derangement Syndrome, and driven to hallucinatory delusions from the anger, hate and fear brewed in the Limbaugh koolade.
I somehow don't think we'll be seeing a corporate media story on the racist nut throwing nuts.
It is who they are.
Every single comment by every liberal commenter here has been an attack on conservatives. Not one single comment showing how your god-king Odumbo should be re-elected based on his record of accomplishments.
And don't even try to convince yourself that the anemic stock market recovery was due to Obama, the market has recovered in spite of his policies. Regardless of Obama's claims that business owners "didn't build that." The fact is that the government didn't build that, businesses and business owners did that.
So, go ahead and get back to the Party of Hate's favorite hate mongering topic du jour. The target of Code Pink's misogyny, racism, and hate is speaking now...
FandB wrote: "Regardless of Obama's claims that business owners "didn't build that." The fact is that the government didn't build that, businesses and business owners did that."
What a display of insufferable ignorance. Are you beyond gullible or are you parroting demagoguery you know is untrue?
President Obama made a valid, sensible point. We have a country full of things invested in, created and used in common. The guy who goes into business repairing cars and trucks benefits tremendously from our highway system, railroads and airports. He probably benefits from a Small Business Administration loan, quite possibly from training at a community college or military technical training. He benefits from a healthy, educated work force, whether that's a staff of two-dozen mechanics or a part-time helper just starting out.
The guy starting that auto repair business benefits from police and fire protection, and his insurance rates are more affordable because of that protection.
The guy starting an auto repair business didn't create and sustain all those things, although if he has worked and paid taxes, he's contributed.
That is what Obama was referring to, and only hopelessly gullible dullards and those out to malign him for political gain failed to understand that. Even though it's been pointed out repeatedly by fact checkers and pundits, those out to malign Obama still don't get it because they don't want to get it.
People disagreeing with some of the president's policies and decisions are par for the course. Objections and criticisms go with the job. Lying about and twisting his words is another matter. It's a pathetically transparent and futile exercise that says much more about the people doing it than about Obama.
FandB: "A number of members of the Radical Left-Wing group Code-Pink attempted to 'arrest' Condi Rice at the Republican National Convention.
Why did they single out a black woman?"
They singled Rice out only because her fellow war criminals -- Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld -- weren't in attendance.
It was her criminality they resented, not her race; unlike the reasons that the Right hates Obama.
SW: While everything you listed may be true, that does not change the fact that when a man stands up and creates a new business, he did do that. The government didn't do it, roads didn't do it, police didn't do it. He did. All those other things are available to everyone whether they start a business or sit on their a$$es collecting welfare, they are all on a level playing field that includes everything you named.
But that entrepreneur who starts a business and builds it up IS the one who did that. Obama wants to take that away because he wants everyone to be dependent an the state. He wants the state to own everything and control everything. The socialist paradise. He minimizes personal achievement (of everyone except himself) and glorifies and magnifies government and the role it played in building this country.
As far as lying, twisting words, etc., liberals do that to republicans every single day. Don't cry foul when republicans do it to them. Yeah, paybacks are hell.
The "fact checkers" and "pundits" you refer to are mainly left wing shills who drink way to much of the Obama and MSM kool-ade.
Code Pink singled out Condi Rice because she was a black woman. That is pure misogynistic, racist, heterophobic Hate from the Party of Hate.
FandB: "Obama wants to take that away because he wants everyone to be dependent an the state. He wants the state to own everything and control everything."
Sounds like a lot of right-wing propaganda, if not outright schizophrenic paranoia to me. Please cite your source(s).
Gee, you're not only narcissistic; you're delusional too!
"[Obama] minimizes personal achievement..."
No he doesn't. He cites everyday working people's achievements all the time, not to mention athletic achievements, achievements in scholastic endeavors and scientific research, etc., etc.
You are kidding, right?
"...and glorifies and magnifies government and the role it played in building this country."
And, yes, he does this too. If you were honest, not only with us but also with yourself, you'd admit that conservatives obsessively deny the great achievements that people, through our government, have given to the public and citizenry of this nation.
But, you have trouble being honest.
"As far as lying, twisting words, etc., liberals do that to republicans every single day."
Please cite some examples. Vagary paints a great generalized picture that tends to sway simple and compliant minds. That's evident from the speeches I've heard from Tampa. Let's talk about the "nuts and bolts" and see where you're coming from.
"The 'fact checkers' and 'pundits' you refer to are mainly left wing shills who drink way to much of the Obama and MSM kool-ade."
That's funny, 'cause the "MSM" are the corporate-owned media. If we were fortunate enough to have a media that did scrutinize the details, Romney would have been out of the race a long time ago.
Please don't tell me you're one of those "liberal media" fuddy-duddies, are you? The "liberal media" have been dead longer than disco. There's no such thing! Everything is essentially owned and distributed through five major media conglomerates. I would have expected you to know this, being a "global technology director" as you claim.
"Code Pink singled out Condi Rice because she was a black woman."
No, Code Pink didn't. I already explained why she was selected (see above message time-stamped at 4:00AM).
Again, the innuendo and purposeful and daringly deceptive lies continue to propagate from your computer. How do you do this with a straight face?
Oh, I forgot, sociopaths can lie without showing any emotion. It's a classic symptom.
President Obama made a valid, sensible point.
I suppose if you're a socialist. The people who actually built it know the truth, its an arrogant statement and wrong to boot.
Business owners built America. Period. The only reason Obama gets a pay check is because they pay the taxes. He needs them a lot more than they need him. In fact, he spends most of his time in their way. And you can resent them all you want, but without them none of us would have jobs. Even me, the government employee. I'm not so fucking stupid I don't know who funds my pay check.
Jefferson: OK. Sources - a guy I know who worked with Obama in the White House told me.
That's right, it was the same guy who Told Harry Reid that Romney didn't pay any taxes for 10 years.
For examples of left-wing media bias:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/08/28/RNC-Tuesday-Night-Media-Live-Blog
AND
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/08/29/Day-two-live-blogging-convention
Example of left-wing bias of "fact-checkers": http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/08/30/News-Report-Proves-Ryan-Was-Correct-About-Plant-Cosure
The liberal media are only dead in your little world Jefferson. In the real world they are alive and well and getting worse all the time.
Malcolm,
Your hypothetical analogy of what the righties would do if President Obama made a Mormon joke is on point. Like you said and so do I, IOKIYAR.
Exactly. When I see these liars and dupes go on with their “You didn’t build that business” malarkey, I can’t help but think what outrage would spew from Republicans if say, Kerry had based his platform on Bush’s saying, "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
What would a sane person, let alone a Republican, say if Democrats built their convention around “The Bush Administration says, “They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
But as we all know, IOKIYAR.
Their easy relationship with lies and dishonesty reveals a cultish group mentality bordering on sociopathology.
FandB: "That's right, it was the same guy who Told Harry Reid that Romney didn't pay any taxes for 10 years."
That can't be, because I'm that guy!
"For examples of left-wing media bias..."
Do you get all of your news from breitbart.com?!?
Are you serious?
Oh, by the way, I don't read anything unless the writer is thoughtful and considerate enough to provide a hyperlink. (But, alas, I forgot, that's not a narcissistic quality, is it?) As "Global Technology Director", that shouldn't be too hard for you.
Breitbart? That's it?! [head shaking in disappointment]
"The liberal media are only dead in your little world Jefferson. In the real world they are alive and well and getting worse all the time."
Think again...
SW,
I see your assessment: “What a display of insufferable ignorance. Are you beyond gullible or are you parroting demagoguery you know is untrue?” is confirmed by F&B.
SW: While everything you listed may be true, that does not change the fact that when a man stands up and creates a new business, he did do that. Regardless of Obama's claims that business owners "didn't build that."
And we can thank F&B for confirming that I was correct as well: “Are you that ignorant? Code Pink: “Women For Peace” accuse Rice of lying us into war, and you call that misogyny?”
The target of Code Pink's misogyny, racism, and hate is speaking now...
The cult indoctrination is rigid as ever. They cling to it as if it were their religion. And that is how a cult works.
And as with every cult, the paranoia/persecution syndrome emerges:
Every single comment by every liberal commenter here has been an attack on conservatives
I don’t see one attack on conservatives. And I see no examples of “lies and deceit” about them either. I do see plenty of attacks on their lies and cult dogma. It’s what we do. Sorry, but the facts are clear, Bush left a disaster and Obama has been constrained by the GOP’s “Gutting Obama Priority”.
Speaking of cult dogma, F&B generously provides “proof” of the fictitious “liberal media” by citing Breitbart’s radical Right Wing blog.
Boo hoo! The “liberal media” dares to cover a hurricane instead of showing every Republican speaker at the convention. I guess a hurricane is not news... and there’s no such thing as C-SPAN.
Cute, isn’t it?
This is like a Moonie telling us his cult leader, Bush family friend, Washington Times propagandist, and loyal Republican Rev. Sun Myung Moon is really Jesus.
Why? Because he says so. That’s all it takes for the Moonies and Right wing cults. These are classic examples of authoritarian leaders and followers.
We see corporate media fact checkers are now part of the vast liberal corporate media conspiracy. Nobody but the radical Right is telling the truth.
They are in every sense true believers. And our questioning their beliefs and their masters is to be regarded as Marxist treason.
JG,
Everything is essentially owned and distributed through five major media conglomerates.
So when we say “corporate media”, we’re wrong. Amazing, isn’t it? Glug glug goes their koolade down their throats.
Free,
Business owners built America. Period.
Not quite period. Working men and business owners paid by government money, not to mention slaves, did a whole lot of that building.
Period
Speaking of “liberal media”, looky what’s at foxnews.com.
Paul Ryan’s speech in 3 words:
1. Dazzling 2. Deceiving 3. Distracting
Jefferson, you whine about Breitbart then counter with Freepress? Get serious.
Dubya, the liberal media showed almost exclusively white people speaking and when people of color spoke they refused to televise it. Read the list from Breitbart.com. They didn't make it up. They are not publishing lies. The media is trying to paint the GOP as racist (as are you) and they ignore and hide anything contrary to their preconceived ideas (as do you).
But if you are afraid to examine opposing points of view, that is up to you. Have fun basking in your own ignorance. And enjoy your kool-ade.
Yes, Fox does in fact present opposing points of view, unlike the rest of the liberal-biased media.
It is impossible for anyone to make a good decision without considering all sides of an issue. You will get that from Fox. You will not get that from ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBS, PBS, etc.
Why are you so surprised? Never seen Fox before?
F&B,
So your proof of the great corporate liberal media conspiracy is hurricane coverage being shown instead of GOP tokens?
Sorry, none of the corporate media outlets, apart from C-SPAN, show all of the convention speakers.
But go ahead, be outraged at the injustice of corporate media anyway. We are all the time, only for real reasons.
FandB wrote: "But that entrepreneur who starts a business and builds it up IS the one who did that. . ."
The entrepreneur was able to do that and do it better because of the environment in which he did it -- an environment that includes all the things Obama mentioned and that I explained to you.
You want to be a rugged individualist entrepreneur? Relocate to Belize, Borneo, Somalia or Afghanistan. You'll find little government to get in your way. You'll want to strap on a gun, take fire extinguishers and be prepared to boil water and make do for lack of sanitation services. You might also run into problems receiving supplies you ordered and have to get used to TV and telephones that sometimes don't work for days and weeks at a time. Same thing for electricity, but being resourceful, I'm sure you'll manage.
". . . Obama wants to take that away because he wants everyone to be dependent an the state. He wants the state to own everything and control everything."
No, FanB, whether because you're brainwashed and paranoid or because you dislike and disagree with Obama and therefore see him as an enemy that it's OK to lie about, you're wrong. That's not what Obama is about. That's not what Obama has even begun to try to do in any way.
You're like that addle-brained old woman who told John McCain four years ago that Obama is a Muslim, implying he's terrorist-friendly too.
No, no, Obama is a decent, loyal American who in the healthier political environment of 40 or 50 years ago would've been seen as very much a moderate Democrat, and whose policies and approach are little different from those of presidents Eisenhower and Nixon.
You need to wean yourself from Fox, Limbaugh, breitbart.com and the like, and get back in touch with reality.
"Business owners built America. Period."
A gross oversimplification of the kind simple minds are prone to come up with. Period.
Congressman Artur Davis spoke at the DNC in 2008. He spoke at the RNC in 2012. MSM did not televise his speech.
Texas Senate candidate Ted Cruz.
Speeches from Governors of three swing states were not aired by MSM.
African American Mayor Mia Love spoke, MSM did not show it. Liberals have been referring to her as Aunt Tom since then (among other more derogatory names).
Condi Rice was all but ignored by the MSM.
New Mexico Governor Susana Martinez' speech ignored by MSM.
and many others...
This is how the Party of Hate demonstrates its so-called tolerance and love of diversity. By hiding every republican who isn't white from the American people. By skewing their reporting to fit their agenda. While Fox publishes all points of view.
F&B, old chap, are you on drugs? Have you been scanned for a brain tumor?
I’m getting a little concerned for you, what with my bleeding heart full of liberal compassion.
This is how the Party of Hate demonstrates its so-called tolerance and love of diversity
Wow. That’s taking it entirely out of our universe now.
The Corporate Media = the “Party of Hate”.
You read it here first, folks.
Fox publishes all points of view.
Oh, yeah? That’s stunning news too. What time do they air the “Socialist Hour” with Noam Chomsky?
Let us know when even a Democrat has his own hour long show on FOX(R), like MSNBC does for Scarborough.
To borrow a word from Chris Matthews...Ha!
That koolade must be delicious. And it must be euphoric to know you are always correct and your masters would never misinform.
Seriously, F&B, your faith-like belief system is a wonder to behold.
But you didn’t build that.
It was built for you, and for your fellow true believers.
Every point you make can be traced back to Limbaugh, FOX(R), Breitbart, Republican politicians and the entire echo chamber.
Too bad Democrats aren’t as clever, or in lock step, as Republicans. But then, they aren’t as authoritarian. And that’s why they lose so many gullible folks to the dark side.
“The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.” - Yeats
The GOP war on corporate media fact checkers is under way. They cannot abide someone, even corporate media, questioning them. Media Matters explains...
How The Media Covered Two Romney Falsehoods
Mitt Romney has campaigned heavily on two claims that fact-checkers have widely ruled false. First, that the President Obama gutted welfare requirements (in reality Obama granted states the flexibility Republican governors asked for). Second, that Obama took $716 billion out of Medicare (in reality, Obama cut spending that was targeted at hospitals and doctors, not beneficiaries). How did leading print and cable news
cover the lies?
Fox News and the Wall Street Journal were by far the worst, but the rest of the results might surprise you.
FandB: "Jefferson, you whine about Breitbart then counter with Freepress? Get serious."
I guess the following is too "liberal" for you:
"Freepress.net is a project of Free Press and the Free Press Action Fund. Free Press and the Free Press Action Fund do not support or oppose any candidate for public office. We are nonpartisan organizations advocating for universal and affordable Internet access, diverse media ownership, vibrant public media and quality journalism."
But, if you're unbelieving of consolidating media, try this on for size. And, yeah, this was back in 1987. It has consolidated and condensed even more since then, compressed and as dense as a stellar black hole -- so much so that the truth can't escape, prohibiting you, and millions like you, from seeing the light of day.
Still skeptical? Here's something a little more recent (1999). There are a ton of other articles on this very subject, at this same website, but you'd have to be willing to get your head out of Breitbart? (Or is it somewhere else?)
By the way, I wasn't whining. I was mocking...you.
I've come to realize you think of yourself as another independent and self-made man -- one who pulls his jackboots on one at a time. Congratulations!
My mistake... "“Socialist Hour” with Noam Chomsky?" --- I should have said "legitimate points of view", thus excluding socialism and Noam Chomsky.
Among others ;-)
Freepress is . . . blah, blah, blah. And you really believe that Jefferson? Seriously? I think Daily Kos and MSNBC make similar claims.
Scarborough has been very disappointing, he doesn't represent conservatives today like he did 10 years ago.
Also, the lefty fat boy fan boy Michael Moore told HuffPo to get used to saying President Romney. But I know you lefties all too well, you will be calling him everything you can think of but that. The problem is that Michael Moore is such an idiot that it worries me greatly that he is convinced Mitt will win.
Self-made, Yes. Jackboots, No. But feel free to believe whatever you would like.
No, Dubya, I'm not on drugs, those days are way in my past now. But seriously, don't let my self-imposed sobriety keep you from taking your meds. It sounds like you've been skipping doses lately.
Jefferson, Dubya: You are both very consistent, I'll give you that much. Everything always comes back to evil corporations and their purported conspiratorial control over media and government.
The problem is, your arguments remind me of the old saying: When the only tool you have in your toolbox is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
Working men and business owners paid by government money
Wrong, government took money from the private sector, then distributed it BACK. They're just a middle man. They build nothing. They just suuuuuck at the teet of our economy. Sometimes for good, most of the time for ill.
And as for Slaves, most of this country was build after emancipation. Most of it 40 years after emancipation.
Free,
government took money from the private sector, then distributed it BACK
Yes, the money is called “taxes”. It becomes public money, then it’s re-distributed to where it can be constructive or provide service.
They build nothing.
The fat cat stockholders build nothing. Labor does all the actual physical building.
Your Randroid programming is showing.
--
F&B,
Mistake? You? Impossible. You’re too far right to be wrong.;-)
But we really get you. Honest.
Now we know:
"legitimate points of view" = the right and far right.
Daily Kos and MSNBC make similar claims = Non-FOX(R) news reporting, and all investigative journalism, are all a conspiracy of evil liberals out to destroy America.
Scarborough has been very disappointing
Joe’s a moderate Republican.
Moderates are no longer welcome in the party of Bachmann’s and Palin’s and Gohmerts.
the lefty fat boy fan boy Michael Moore is such an idiot
Several words of personal invectives, none of substantiation.
Self-made, Yes. Jackboots, No.
Only you know how many that you’ve stepped on while making your self-made self.
I'm not on drugs, those days are way in my past now.
Be that as it may, we can’t rule out possible brain damage or sociopathy from cocaine and alcohol. (My guess)
Everything always comes back to evil corporations and their purported conspiratorial control over media and government.
What? Corporations are evil? Who told you that? A corporation would have to be a person to be evil. Show me one corporation I ,or anyone here, said is evil.
Go ahead, have a look around. No you won’t need to, not that you would.
We’re the sane people who say a corporation is not a person, and should not have rights superseding human rights.
No, I never call corporations evil.
Evil is in men, and in what they do with physical and political coercion through economic power and influence on corrupt politicians.
Conspiracies? Not really. No, they’re called deals. Deals between cronies and political connections. Deals pressuring politicians for legislation favorable to their bottom line, no matter the consequences to the public.
Conspiracies??? How about ownership? Corporations own the media. Have you not been listening to us while you babble about “liberal media”??
Here, read this next sentence out loud. Corporations own the media. ....
I don’t hear you.... C’mon, say it. It won’t hurt. I promise.
One more thing about ownership.
The banks -- hard to believe in a time when we're facing a banking crisis - that many of the banks created -- are still the most powerful lobby on Capitol Hill. And they frankly own the place. - Senator Dick Durbin
The Senate voted no, 51 to 45, on the Durbin Amendment in May 2009. He wanted to allow bankruptcy judges to help desperate homeowners renegotiate their mortgage payments. Bankruptcy court can rewrite the mortgage on your vacation condos, your farm, or your ranch, so why can't they do it for your home?
Cha-ching! Do what the banks say, not as they do. And this is AFTER the ’08 collapse. No wonder Wall Street wants their good ol’ Republican pals back in power.
No conspiracy. Deals.
But conspiracies? You, F&B have some real doozys for us.
My favorites are:
Non-FOX(R) news reporting, and all investigative journalism, is a conspiracy of evil Marxist liberals out to destroy America.
There’s a secret conspiracy of evil liberal climate scientists, with their socialist thermometers, trying to frighten and threaten us with global warming. This is so they can force us into surrendering our freedoms and impose Marxist rule.
Now THOSE are some wacked out paranoid conspiracies.
Yes, you did build that.
then it’s re-distributed to where it can be constructive or provide service.
Yes, so lets cut out the middle man and do it cheaper and more efficiently.
The fat cat stockholders build nothing
Labor does not exist without the customer and the owner. I've swung that hammer and wielded that shovel. And I didn't do it for the goodness of my heart. How much back breaking labor have you done in your life? I would wager very strongly I've done a lot more manual labor in my life than you have. And I would have done none of it without the pay check. Nothing gets built without capital. In fact, my manual labor job was very interchangeable, and I was easily replaceable. Without my boss, we all would have been out of a job. I'm not stupid, and I know where I stood at my job, and I knew exactly what my labor was worth. And I learned quickly it is much better to own, and that I needed my bosses check a lot more than they needed me. I wasn't a prick and resentful at that situation. I was happy for the job. After all, no one put a gun to my head and made me work there. And I knew if I didn't like it, I could always quit. And aspired to do just that.
Thats because I have no sense of entitlement, and I have no allusions to the value of labor. The value of labor is zero. Only production has value.
Dubya: "Only you know how many that you’ve stepped on while making your self-made self." ==> None. I have supported my co-workers, convinced some to go back to school for a degree or advanced degree, protected them as much as possible during bad times, and helped them move up in the company as we grew - that is why I have their loyalty. My career progress has come through hard work and good, positive results. Never needed jackboots.
Wrong. No cocaine. Little alcohol (I hate the way I feel the next day)... But that's enough about that ;-)
Your little rant at the end is pretty ragged and scatterbrained, you must have stayed up past your bedtime when you were writing it. So it makes no sense to address those hypnogogia induced comments.
Socialism, Marxism, neo-Marxism, communism - these forms of government have been tried repeatedly and have Failed repeatedly.
Government doesn't create jobs, corporations create jobs. From the start-up mom and pop shop to the multi-national conglomerate, corporations create jobs. Most people want jobs, they do not want to be on the public dole. This is where the democrats and Obama have Failed the American people - they have Failed to create an environment in this country where businesses can prosper and create new jobs.
All the liberal, progressive, socialist rhetoric in the world does not change that fact. And there is no reason to expect things would be any better in a second Obama term. He has no experience creating real jobs, he doesn't know what it takes and he doesn't know what it means.
American needs a change. And I hope we get one before its too late.
Free,
Thanks again for the Randroid slogans.
F&B,
I hope you didn’t step on anyone. You may say none, but that perspective is one sided. The other perspective is missing. I’m not accusing you of anything. That is for those who may have been abused, manipulated cheated, or otherwise aggrieved.
Those Right Wing conspiracies look pretty wacky spelled out in front of your eyes, don’t they? Yet they are at the essence of the radical Right narrative. We are bombarded by the Right’s “liberal media” and “evil climate scientist” conspiracies.
You cannot deny this. This if from the same birthers, wackos, and propagandists who spew the “Obama the Marxist”, or “Obama the Kenyan”, and “Obama the anti-American” conspiracies.
Behold the beam in your own eye.
All systems can fail, even capitalism when unregulated. Remember September 2008? I dare you to say communism failed in China. It has succeeded for their elites, just as capitalism has for Western elites. The regular people are getting screwed by global corporatism everywhere, whether they call it capitalism, socialism or communism.
The fact is socialized government safety nets are wanted by the people. Your side wants them privatized so corporations can CEO’s can suck up our tax dollars, to the detriment of the public.
The more money flowing into stockholder and CEO pockets, the less for actual health care and benefits. Only a fool or corporate shills would deny this basic truth.
Government doesn't create jobs, corporations create jobs.
Beyond the bumper sticker mentality of the Right we find the reality that both government and corporations create jobs. In fact how many jobs would be gone if not for government? Countless jobs depend on Government. Yes private sector corporate jobs build everything from roads and bridges to bombs and aircraft carriers. None of those jobs would be there if not for taxes and government.
Would you deny that fact?
The failure you want to pin on Obama and Democrats is also shared by Republicans. If you cannot grasp that, you’re beyond the realm of history, facts, reason and logic.
Stripping government of its Constitutional powers of regulation and taxation, while endowing corporations and Big Money more power than government is not the change America needs. But that’s where the Right is pushing us.
The banks -- hard to believe in a time when we're facing a banking crisis - that many of the banks created -- are still the most powerful lobby on Capitol Hill. And they frankly own the place. - Senator Dick Durbin
That is destructive to both democracy and the rule of law. Welcome to Right Wing America. As George Carlin said, “You don’t have rights. You have owners.”
And you can’t even admit Corporations own the media.
Why not? Is it because they are “evil corporations”?
Thanks again for the Randroid slogans.
Its actually Milton Freedman ;) Rand was a philosopher, not an economist.
As you can see.
"The value of labor is zero. Only production has value."
"Government doesn't create jobs, corporations create jobs."
We're past the point of diminishing returns here. You can't have an intelligent discussion about a book with someone who insists on speaking a different language and refuses to read the book.
We're now past the inevitable stage where our radical-right friends echo right wing noise machine propaganda. The next stage is trollery, or maybe cage rattling is a better way to describe it.
If you're talking about Axioms Anderson, yours are indeed flawed ;)
As for what I'm talking about, the Austrian school of economics... and the Chicago school have both been around a long, long time. What I'm saying isn't anything new. What I see is another copout arguement here from you. Its easier to whine about talking points than actually refute an argument, and as usual you're taking the easy way out. If you don't want to argue a point someone has made or tried to make, thats fine. Not posting is always an option for you. And since its Dave's blog and he has total control over it, I suppose you can simply make copout posts such as your last one.
But then of course, I can call you on it.
FandB: "Jefferson, Dubya: You are both very consistent, I'll give you that much. Everything always comes back to evil corporations and their purported conspiratorial control over media and government."
Of course we're consistent. It's easy when the core problem has been staring us in the face for so long.
All my adult years I pondered why we were never able to "fix" all our societal and economic ills, despite promises and assurances from each major political party that they had the answers (which they never did). But it wasn't until about ten years ago that I read a complete history of corporate personhood, and how these two words have been the foundation of our current ill-fated economic paradigm, that everything came into perspective for me.
You're the one, along with Free0352, who continually claims we're against "evil" corporations. You know, as well as I, that we've never labeled corporations as "evil". Far from it. They are, however, amoral creations that have only one function and purpose in mind, and that's not what's in the best interest for our democratic institutions and ideals. Corporations can't be evil -- only the men and women using them to undermine our democratic processes can be.
As far as the reach that multinational banking and corporate (including media) interests have within our government, if you're not able to see this, and admit it, then you're either ignorant or a liar. There can't be a way for any well-informed and intelligent person not to see this.
But, then, I guess that explains why you haven't.
That was no more "a joke" than I'm young, beautiful and sexy. It was deliberate and calculating. The Tea Baggers need to take a close look at how they appear to the rest of the country and to the whole world. Yes -- that world beyond our borders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q6DNm6rrYY&feature=player_embedded
Your use of the term "Tea Baggers" says much more about your character than your post says about the character of those you try to dismiss.
I'm sure you also believe that by dressing up as giant pink vaginas at the RNC, your code pink friends made democrats look sane and rational to the rest of the world.
FandB: "Your use of the term 'Tea Baggers' says much more about your character..."
Your usual ignorance of the world around you is possibly surpassed by your feigned indignation. Your side originally used the term, with great pride I might add, so just consider it our overture in extending the olive branch and seeking ecumenical understanding. ;-)
"I'm sure you also believe that by dressing up as giant pink vaginas at the RNC, your code pink friends made democrats look sane and rational..."
It delivered a very clear message, however, just as your side is always inadvertently looking like a bunch of dicks.
Leslie,
That video should be shown every night at the Democratic convention. If dems positioned themselves in opposition to that fascistic misinformation, fear and hate they just may have a good chance of winning.
Far too often Dems refuse to draw a clear line, take a stand, and oppose the radical Right.
F&B,
Did you watch that video ?
Didn’t think so.
Please tell us if you will, what does the use of the term "Teabagger" say about one's character?
Does that apply to the teabaggers who are “proud to be teabaggers”?
JG,
Obviously IOKIYAR, and nobody else, to use the term "teabagger".
We'll just need to learn to keep in our place and shut up in the New Republikaner Order.
We were called traitors when we questioned the Bush Administration's war-mongering propaganda.
When the tea cult takes over that will be "compassionate conservative" tolerance by comparison.
Duba: "Did you watch that video ?
Didn’t think so." ... As usual Dubya, you're on a roll lately. Wrong again, I did watch it. I saw a phony video put together by left wing moonbats, probably mostly of democrat operatives saying whatever they're told to say. Totally unsubstantiated drivel, probably a product of the Onion or similar venture.
What does the use of the term say about the character of someone who uses it against the many, many good people in the Tea Party, without knowing them or what they aspire to be? It says: two-faced bigoted hypocrite.
Yes, the left is always oh-so tolerant, unless you happen to disagree with them.
On the other hand, the new leader of the right has the following credentials, among many others:
Mitt Romney:
Gave his entire inheritance to charity
Volunteered for his Dad’s gubernatorial campaign for one year
Unpaid intern in Governor’s office for 8 years
Mormon missionary in Paris for 2 years
Unpaid state President for his church for 10 years
Took no pay as President of the Salt Lake Winter Olympics for 3 years
Took no salary as Governor of Massachusetts for 4 years
That’s a total of 28 years of unpaid service to his country, community, and church.
That’s the kind of man Mitt Romney is.
(Adapted from Chicks on the Right on facebook)
F&B,
Ah, denial at work. Paid actors? That’s your answer? Sounds like another of your conspiracies to me. We’ll add this one to your other conspiracies, the Marxist Liberal Corporate Media and the conspiracy of Evil Climate Scientists.
What evidence do you have that it is ”phony video put together by left wing moonbats, probably mostly of democrat operatives saying whatever they're told to say. Totally unsubstantiated drivel, probably a product of the Onion or similar venture” ?
Wow. That would be one hell of a lot of good actors that we’ve never seen or heard from before or since.
This is sheer desperation on your part to deny and distract. Those wackos are the real deal, fed by lies and FOX(R), by their own admission.
I still bet you didn’t watch it. After all you already “knew” what it is, right?
Right, and teabaggers can use the term but I can’t.
Yes, What does the use of the term say about the character of someone who uses it against the many, many good people in the Tea Party, who use the term themselves?
As you confirm, if you’re a Republican teabagger its ok, if not, then you’re a two-faced bigoted hypocrite. Projection and double standards at their finest.
Very Right of you.
Thank you.
I am very tolerant. I just do not tolerate dishonesty, willful ignorance and lies.
Aww. Mitt the flip-flopping, hair snipping bully and animal abusing liar is a saint after all. That’s the kind of man Mitt Romney is.
His schooling was padded by an allowance sufficient enough for frequent weekend air travel to visit his girlfriend. Yup, he pulled himself up by the bootstraps the old-fashioned way, by wealth and privilege.
How wonderful of him to give so much to his cult, er, church, as a requirement for membership, and to the George W. Romney Institute of Public Management at BYU, a school named after a polygamous authoritarian cult leader.
Funny how we never heard this stuff from you guys during the primaries when “Taliban Santorum” and “Family Values” Gingrich were in the running.
Back then Mitt was a flip-flopping, “Romneycare” Massachusetts liberal, now Mitt is a saint.
Amusing.
So, now Mormonism is a cult? You liberals can't even "tolerate" someone having a religion different from your own (if you have one at all). You have to stoop to calling it a cult, just to try to demean and degrade someone you disagree with politically. How did the party of Kennedy, Truman, and FDR sink so far down into the gutter?
Yes, I will confirm again, lefties who refer to members of the Tea Party as "teabaggers" are two-faced bigoted hypocrite losers.
And yes, the liberals have been known to use plants quite often in interviews at Tea Party rallies and elsewhere. The fact that it is posted on YouTube does nothing to add to its credibility. And even if all the interviews were legitimate, those interviewed do not represent the mainstream school of conservative ideology any more than the code pink vaginas represent mainstream liberal ideology.
But I will confess that the events of the past couple of weeks, including the RNC, and including the rabid hate-mongering lies and deceit coming from the left, especially on liberal blogs like this one, have made me re-evaluate my position and I have moved from an anti-Obama position to a very much Pro-Romney position.
Not only will Mitt Romney be a much better President than Obama, Mitt Romney has the character needed to become a great President, and I believe he is quite capable of pulling America from the economic and partisan divisiveness of Obama and restoring the U.S. to its former economic strength and unity.
FandB: "And even if all the interviews were legitimate, those interviewed do not represent the mainstream school of conservative ideology..."
The mainstream school of conservative ideology died a long time ago. Those who were interviewed in that video represent the new paradigm of Republicanism in America. The very idea that you're condoning their hateful and despicable behavior indicates I'm correct.
"...any more than the code pink vaginas represent mainstream liberal ideology."
What is it with you and vaginas? Are they offensive to you? I'd think you'd be horribly offended by the hate and sickness that's multiplying in the hearts and minds of your fellow tea-baggers, and spewing from their mouths like the saliva of a rabid dog, but instead you're consumed with the likeness of a giant vagina.
You're absolutely over the top, you know that? [LOL]
"...and including the rabid hate-mongering lies and deceit coming from the left, especially on liberal blogs like this one..." [Emphasis my own.]
Interestingly, you keep coming back, don't you? I believe it's because you're searching for truth and intuitively your search takes you here.
DD:
Mormonism is a cult?
Have you seen the gold tablets in the magic hat? And it seems a higher percentage of Republicans than Dems see it as a cult.
28% of Americans say they believe Mormonism is a cult.
A Poll Position national scientific survey found 48% saying the Mormon faith is not a cult, 28% saying it is a cult, and 25% expressing no opinion.
Thirty-one percent of Republicans said Mormonism is a cult, as did 25% of Democrats and 25% of independents.
Well, look who else "stoops" to calling it a cult.
Yes, I will confirm again,
Reiteration is not confirmation.
lefties who refer to members of the Tea Party as "teabaggers" are two-faced bigoted hypocrite losers.
Yes, we got it. Lefties are two-faced bigoted hypocrite losers for using the same term teabaggers use and display on their t-shirts and buttons. Yup. Fair and balanced logic there.
those interviewed do not represent the mainstream school of conservative ideology
I agree. But you have made many of the same radical false assertions.
liberals have been known to use plants quite often in interviews at Tea Party rallies and elsewhere
Show us, please.
We know your side does this.
The American Spectator admits to being involved in the precipitation of violence at the Air and Space Museum as a means of discrediting the Occupy Movement.
It has been openly reporting about its "plants" among the protesters and their actions to get certain things to occur.
Patrick Howley, its Assistant Editor writes:
Under a cloud of pepper spray I forced myself into the doors and sprinted blindly across the floor of the Air and Space Museum, drawing the attention of hundreds of stunned khaki-clad tourists (some of whom began snapping off disposable-camera portraits of me). I strained to glance behind me at the dozens of protesters I was sure were backing me up, and then I got hit again, this time with a cold realization: I was the only one who had made it through the doors.
Projection again.
events of the past couple of weeks, including the RNC
Yes, the Republicans throwing peanuts at the black CNN camerawoman saying, “This is how we feed animals” comes to mind.
hate-mongering lies and deceit coming from the left, especially on liberal blogs like this one
Then why don’t you cite and correct the deceit and lies? Isn’t that what you’re here for?
Not only will Mitt Romney be a much better President than Obama...
He’ll be a lot whiter?
Mitt Romney has the character needed to become a great President
An animal abusing, hair clipping bully, and serial liar would be the right character for the Greedy Oligarch Party.
Sorry to distract you from citing and correcting all my lies and deceit. Please help us out by not offering more lies and deceit.
Jefferson: "Interestingly, you keep coming back, don't you? I believe it's because you're searching for truth and intuitively your search takes you here." --- Yeah, well, that's just because you're an idiot.
Tea party infiltration here:
http://www.lawatchdog.com/082210TeaPartyDemImposters-.html
And here:
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/exposed-liberal-plots-to-make-tea-party-appear-racist-uneducated-democratic-underground-daily-ko/blog-346549/
with links to Daily Kos comments from infiltrators...
Mitt Romney's remark was, in fact, just a little joke, and a funny one at that. All the liberals have feigned outrage and got their panties all in a bunch over nothing. Of course, and as usual, rather than point out all of the benefits of re-electing Obama, all they can do is make up lies about their opponent. It is sad really that the party of Kennedy, Truman, and FDR has sunk this low.
F&B,
just a little joke, and a funny one at that
So far nobody’s offered any explanation for how the “joke” was funny...
Well?
I have good sense of humor and I don’t see what’s so funny about birther jokes. You apparently do, but refuse to say how. I suspect you cannot. Am I right? Yes, I am.
Remember when I said...
By the way, did you actually listen to the crowd reaction? That wasn’t laughter. The crowd cheered wildly.... like at a rally with a speaker reminding them who to hate and blame for everything.
But your message is clear. Birther jokes are funny and appropriate. However, “lefties who refer to members of the Tea Party as "teabaggers" are two-faced bigoted hypocrite losers”.
Now that’s funny.... “Yup. we have our self-identified teabaggers. Just don’t you lefties call ‘em that or you’re a two-faced bigoted hypocrite loser. You betcha.”
Yeah, that’s funny. Not funny as in odd, but funny as in a clown act, or ironic comedy, or a farce begging to be satirized.
Maybe this little exploration of the term “funny” will help you explain how funny birther jokes are.
I have to admit. You really are a funny little rollercoaster of inflexible dogma riding on your flexible reality.
Thanks for the chuckles and grins.
The pathos behind the comedy in our theatrical presentation is the fact too many Americans mindlessly buy into that inflexible dogma riding on your flexible reality.
But that gives meaning and purpose to my efforts here, so thank you once again.
FandB: "Yeah, well, that's just because you're an idiot."
Obviously, I disagree, although I've been called worse. I'll tell you what I am. I'm a realist.
But it still mystifies me as to why you keep returning. Why do you?
"Of course, and as usual, rather than point out all of the benefits of re-electing Obama, all they can do is make up lies about their opponent."
Actually, there has been plenty of lying on both sides. That's not new in political campaigns. It's older than politics itself. But the fact remains that Romney's and Ryan's lies have been the most egregious. When independent fact-checking is applied, those two always come out ahead. Don't forget, it's a Republican thing. They learn it from an early age; it's part of their grooming.
As far as the benefits of reelecting Obama: Romney/Ryan won't win. That's the benefit! Remember, I'm a realist, so either party is a disaster for the middle-and working-classes. But the only choice we have is either Corporatist-Lite or Corporatist-Oppressed. In order to buy time, I prefer to go with the "lite" version every time.
Jefferson: "I'll tell you what I am. I'm a realist." -- No, you're scared to death of a non-existant corporate boogeymen who you think are conspiring to suppress and repress you. So you have an easy out and don't have to examine your own failings. It's always someone else's fault. So, what you are, in fact, is an idiot. You may have been called worse, I wouldn't know about that, but my description is accurate.
Dubya: "So far nobody’s offered any explanation for how the “joke” was funny..." -- The reason is so obvious that I didn't believe I needed to explain. It is funny because it's True!
Why are you so deeply offended by "birther" jokes Dubya? Do they strike a nerve with you for some reason?
Dubya: "inflexible dogma" --- But Dubya, I just showed you that I am flexible. Your and Jefferson's arguments have caused me to change my Vote from anti-Obama to very much Pro-Romney.
F&B,
non-existant corporate boogeymen
Whew! Thank you for reassuring us that corporations' lobbying and campaign contributions are only a reflection of their good-hearted, compassionate sense of sharing, and their patriotic and civic-minded support of public interests. (In case you missed this from the previous thread.)
We all know corporate influence on government is real, and representation is disproportionately in favor of Big Money. Care to deny that? You should if you’re doing your job.
Speaking of conspiracies, how about the ones about a “liberal” corporate media; that advertises corporate products, and takes corporate money for political ads endorsing corporate friendly candidates? That’s a hoot. And then there’s the diabolical secret conspiracy of evil climate scientists, with their socialist thermometers, who dare to disagree with the renowned climate scientist, and expert in all things, Rush Limbaugh.
It is funny because it's True!
There, see that wasn’t so hard after all, was it?
Except the joke was greeted with cheers instead of laughter, and it is rooted in the hate and ignorance of radical Right Republicans.
But now that we’re clear on that, I’m sure you would also find this funny if Obama used it in a campaign speech:
“Everybody knows that my faith is Christian. Nobody’s ever asked to see MY magic underwear.”
Ha, ha, Funny because it’s true, right?
How about this joke? “You think LSD causes hallucinations? That’s nothing compared to what LDS users see. They see God living on planet Kolob.”
Ha! That one is hilarious...because it’s true! Or do you want a double standard for that, like you do for birthers and teabaggers?
You’re wrong. I’m not offended by anything anyone says. I have a healthy sick sense of humor. Being “Offended” is the domain of bitter Bible thumpers, Islamists, and other true believers.
I just showed you that I am flexible.
Yes, we see you’re as flexible as a dry twig. Very good.
And as open minded, I should add.
But you are not an idiot. You are an ideologue.
And you can’t help it. That’s why I’m able to still like you. I couldn’t hate you any more than I could hate a Moonie.
Once you buy into the dogma there’s no looking back...or forward.
But you can’t claim nobody ever informed you otherwise.
You must deny every fact that does not align with the Republican Party line. You must ignore every one of my correct statements. You must ignore every correction of any falsehood propagated by the Right.
“Obama said you didn’t build your business”
That is what you must believe.
Compare that to when Bush said, "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
Omygod! Bush never stops thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people!! He said so!
Or not, according to your inflexible beliefs and double standards. Orwellian doublethink is what it really is.
Right?
You'll have to try again Dubya...Your attempts at "funny because it's true" jabs didn't do anything for me.
Your use of the term "forward" did border on being funny. Mainly because it was a buzzword used by numerous Failed European socialist campaigns . . . And Obama's current campaign. See, it was funny because it's true. Get it?
It's also funny that you and the other democrats still have to resort to attacks on President Bush when you see that your weak attacks against Mitt Romney have Failed.
Try what again?
Your attempts at "funny because it's true" jabs didn't do anything for me.
Of course not, you’re notion of what’s true is impaired.
still have to resort to attacks on President Bush
What, still defending Bush?
You meant this?
Funny, when Bush said, "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
Omygod! Bush never stops thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people!!
And that’s “also funny”? That was no attack on Bush. That was an example of how your beliefs are molded, in the attack on Obama’s never having said. “You didn’t build your business”.
You see, we never went hysterical and needed to mis-quote the Decider out of context to make a point. That would be sooo lame. Your kind of thing, entirely.
We know you deliberately miss the point due to your Orwellian doublethink. We got it. We're cool.
Now run along and support the guy who believes God is watching us from planet Kolob. Let’s restore some sanity and reality to the White House.
No belief is too far out there for you guys... Death panels, nukular aluminum tubes, Obama the Marxist, the evil liberal corporate media, and the vast conspiracy of wicked climate scientists with their satanic thermometers.
Thanks again for exemplifying such indoctrination.
Don’t ever question those beliefs....
Ha.
Sorry. We know you’re incapable.
FandB: "No, you're scared to death of a non-existant [sic] corporate boogeymen who you think are conspiring to suppress and repress you."
I refer you to what Dave previously wrote -- twice. Obviously, you didn't read it the first time or the second time:
"Thank you for reassuring us that corporations' lobbying and campaign contributions are only a reflection of their good-hearted, compassionate sense of sharing, and their patriotic and civic-minded support of public interests."
He also wrote the following, but somehow I missed your response. Would you mind indulging me?
"We all know corporate influence on government is real, and representation is disproportionately in favor of Big Money. Care to deny that?"
"So you have an easy out and don't have to examine your own failings. It's always someone else's fault."
Oh...you mean like when you blame "big government"? ;-)
Jefferson: "I refer you to what Dave previously wrote -- twice. Obviously, you didn't read it..." --- It isn't that I didn't read it... I just do not believe or agree with it.
Corporations should have influence over the government, after all, corporations are people too! And We The People (which includes corporations within the term We) own the government, i.e. the government belongs to us, not the other way around.
Unlike what your Big Brobama-in-chief would have you believe... That we all belong to the government.
Seriously, I know you only support Obama because you're so scared of Mitt Romney, but my God, man, lose your irrational fear of corporations and look at what Obama and his minions have done to our country in less than four years. And nothing but lies and deceit coming from the left...
Example: http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/05/politics/fact-check-obama-jobs/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
Even CNN can't ignore the egregious lies being told by the Obama campaign.
And yet your irrational fear of corporations forces you to continue supporting Obama.
Jefferson: "somehow I missed your response..." If I responded to every nonsensical jab and innuendo from you and Dubya, my response would look like effing War and Peace.
FandB: "Corporations should have influence over the government, after all, corporations are people too!"
Please direct me to where this is evident within the U.S. Constitution.
"And We The People (which includes corporations within the term We) own the government, i.e. the government belongs to us, not the other way around."
Again, please refer to the part in our constitution that makes such a claim.
"Unlike what your Big Brobama-in-chief would have you believe... That we all belong to the government."
Please reference where he's said this. I must have missed it.
"And yet your irrational fear of corporations forces you to continue supporting Obama."
I have no fear of corporations, per se, yet I fear a government that's run by corporations. I've thought I've been very clear about this.
Secondly, I've never proclaimed my support for Obama. I've only indicated that he's the (much) lesser of two evils. Again, with Obama we'd (hopefully) be buying some time. Not the case with Romney (or any Republican). The dismantling of the working- and middle-classes will accelerate if Romney gets into office.
FandB, please reply to me with these last couple of questions:
(1) What is a corporate charter (sometimes known as the articles of incorporation)?
(2) What entity approves and legalizes this arrangement, thus allowing this corporation to exist?
C'mon, you're the "global technology director"...you should be able to answer this! ;-)
JG,
"Corporations should have influence over the government, after all, corporations are people too!"
It’s obvious F&B’s programming says a corporation is a person. You’d think the least he could do is show us a corporate birth certificate, or obituary, or where one has been imprisoned. ;-)
You see, HIS Constitution reads. “We the people (which includes corporations within the term We)”, meaning corporations own the government. The power to regulate commerce is intended to mean corporations are free to self regulate and the government should have no power over corporations.
Quite a cult they have there.
Remember HIS cult has imaginary founders that said, “Corporations should have influence over the government as provided under we the people”.
And for the same reasons he must say, “I just do not believe or agree with it,” to everything not fed to him by his cult masters.
It's obvious he can only believe or agree with the radical Right indoctrination.
You know, the indoctrination that tells him Obama says, “we all belong to the government”.
And, “Obama and his minions have done to our country in less than four years”.
Their mix of racism and memory/reality impairment cannot recognize the mess Bush left us.
Everything is all Obama’s fault.
Now he MUST believe that. Just like he must believe in death panels and the “Obama the Marxist racist who hates America”.
We can offer facts, but he will “disagree” or choose not to believe them.
This was similarly ignored by another cultist at a different blog:
Unemployment rate on Election Day 2008 – 6.5%
On Obama’s Inauguration Day - 7.3%
What does that say? It was hitting the fan before Obama took office.
Thank you Mr. Bush.
What happened since?
Peak rate – 10%
Current rate – 8.3%
Stock Market Closing Prices – January 20, 2009
Dow Jones Industrial Average ( DJIA ) Close - 7949.09
Nasdaq Stock Market Close - 1440.86
S&P 500 Close - 805.23
Stock Market Closing Prices – August 28, 2012
Dow Jones Industrial Average ( DJIA ) Close- 13102.99
Nasdaq Stock Market Close – 3077.14
S&P 500 Close – 1409.30
Looks like we’re better off now than four years ago.
--
Theirs is an authoritarian world of no choice, only acceptance and unconditional belief.
If we let them win, that totalitarian scenario will be the fate of all Americans.
Jefferson, I'm surprised you don't know this. The charter or more accurately "Articles of Incorporation" are essentially the Birth Certificate of the corporate personhood. They name the parents (owners) and describe the new entity, much like a birth certificate does for a human, even those who happen to be born in Kenya.
Articles of Incorporation have to be approved by the individual state in which the corporate person is born, but not necessarily where he/she will live. This is much like how the state has to approve a certificate of live birth for a human. I'm not sure about the laws covering this in Kenya, but it appears that they might have made some sort of arrangement with Hawaii in the early 1960's.
This only applies to businesses when they formally incorporate. Businesses can exist without becoming corporations, much as people from Kenya, for example, can exist in the U.S. without actually being citizens.
JG,
So the market has improved since Obama took office. The rich are richer than ever after Obama took office, The unemployment number is shrinking from the Bush Recession high of 10%.
This all indicates we are better off than we were four years ago. It’s a shame cultists won’t be allowed to be optimistic over the good news. They’re wrapped in doom and gloom by their leaders, and filled with the empty promise that tax cuts and deregulation will make everything better, despite the history of their utter failure.
F&B is either a birther, no surprise, or he’s simply reduced to needling and baiting as the only defense of his wacky beliefs.
Either way, he’s behaving like a cultist trapped by his narrow beliefs.
"Articles of Incorporation" are the same as certificates of live birth, don’t you know?
What a cult.
Their koolade must be sweet indeed.
So why should we bother with “personhood” or rights for individuals, when corporations are super-persons and know what’s best for everyone?
From now on, the only acceptable change will be what the wealthy minority wants.
They have more rights and more power, thanks to their cash being sanctified as “free speech”.
Republicans are fixing that little “democracy problem” by imposing restrictions on voting for individuals, and increasing corporate dominance of government.
The Brave New World of the radical Right is on the march.
I wonder what their plans are for the rest of us who refuse their koolade...
One thing for sure, it won’t be “compassionate conservatism”.
These extremists tend to get lethal when they seize power.
It won't be pretty...and it won't be our United States of America anymore.
18Market did great under George Bush too, but I didn't hear you singing his praises Dave.
Market did great under George Bush...
....until it didn’t.
Like in 1929, it’s not how you start, it’s how you finish.
Dubya: Most of your posts lately have become exercises in reductio ad absurdum and as such do not warrant a response. But please feel free to enjoy your mental masturbation.
It is clear that you have never quite been able to get your head around the fact that "We The People" does include all the people - not just the ones who agree with you and your paranoid conspiratorial cult of progressives. Even filthy rich republicans are part of "We The People" whether you like it or not. As such, they are entitled to representation, and to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Further, they are entitled to act in their own best interest, just as everyone in the U.S. is.
Dubya: "It won't be pretty...and it won't be our United States of America anymore."
Maybe not, but it will be our United States of America.
Dubya: "Remember HIS cult has imaginary founders that said, “Corporations should have influence over the government as provided under we the people”.
This interpretation of the U.S. Constitution has been reinforced many times over the past nearly 200 years. I'm sure you only question rulings of the Supreme Court when they don't align with your cult's views. You can't have it both ways.
Video of the "we all belong to the government" played at the DNC - you should have been paying closer attention. But that is how progressive cultists get by in the world, isn't it? By ignoring anything that doesn't fit into their little world view.
Still trying to blame President Bush for your failures, eh? Tsk, tsk, tsk. Ronald Reagan never needed to blame anyone for the mess he inherited from Carter - he just fixed it. You progressives should learn a lesson from President Reagan on that. Obama has been President for nearly four years. The economy reflects his policies and failures now, not the previous administration. (By the way, President Bush inherited a recession from Clinton, but you didn't hear him blaming Clinton for everything like Obama does.)
Unemployment remains over 8% after four years of Obama's policies.
Obama needs to lie about job creation. As indicated in a previous post, Obama's regime still boasts a net job LOSS of 400,000 jobs since he took office.
Dubya, I'm surprised you put so much faith in the stock market. Of course I know you will deny that it has any merit at all unless it suits your progressive cultist goals.
The bottom line is, no matter how you slice it or dice it, Obama has Failed.
He has Failed to Preserve, Protect, and Defend the U.S. Constitution, and he has Failed the American People.
It is definitely time for a Change.
Why would anyone listen to FandB who had this to say about Sarah Palin 4 years ago:
"Even the left leaning among us clearly recognize the Wisdom of John McCain’s VP selection, a level of Wisdom and good judgement that will most certainly carry through to other decisions that a Chief Executive and Commander in Chief will need to make."
Where was Mrs. Wisdom 4 years later? Not even invited to attend the GOP convention, nevermind speak at it.
Your judgement is awful.
FandB: "(By the way, President Bush inherited a recession from Clinton, but you didn't hear him blaming Clinton for everything like Obama does.)"
Another fabrication. Did you make this up, or did it come from Breitbart.com? Check the facts. (I'll check for you. That recession began during Bush's reign -- March 2001.)
"Jefferson, I'm surprised you don't know this."
I never indicated I didn't, did I? Just wanted to make sure you knew.
"The charter or more accurately "Articles of Incorporation" are essentially the Birth Certificate of the corporate personhood."
And you do! Surprise!
"Articles of Incorporation have to be approved by the individual state in which the corporate person is born..."
Yes, so it is the state (the government -- "We the People" -- which doesn't include artificial persons, no matter what you claim) that allows corporations to exist -- not the other way around.
"This is much like how the state has to approve a certificate of live birth for a human.
No, not exactly. The state records the birth of a human. It doesn't approve it. However, that state does approve (or not approve) the articles of incorporation for an artificial entity like a corporation. There's a huge difference.
"...no matter how you slice it or dice it, Obama has Failed."
Yes, he has failed to bring us back from the depth of nearly total economic collapse that his predecessor created. As Clinton remarked last evening, there's nobody who could have in only four years. To avert further harm to the economy, I'd rather not see another Republican gain the reins. We're on a slippery slope as it is.
Oh, one other thing...please re-post your evidence, with cited sources, that corporations are included as part of "We the People" in the United States Constitution. For some reason, I must have missed it.
F&B,
Obama's failure to repair the Bush destruction is due to Republican obstruction.
"The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." -- Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY).
What about jobs for Americans, Mitch? Not important to you?
Of course not. Why should he care?
Corporations should have influence over the government
Is there a better way to say “corruption is good”? That is anti-Constitutional. Government should REGULATE COMMERCE. You want the opposite.
Article 1, Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States,
There you go. If you hate taxes and regulation of commerce find a country that fits your radical ideology and stop dismantling ours.
exercises in reductio ad absurdum and as such do not warrant a response
That’s a quaint way to so say “contrary to of my belief system and to be ignored”.
you have never quite been able to get your head around the fact that "We The People" does include all the people
Nonsense and distraction. YOU think “we the people” means “we the corporations” and “we the banks”. That is patently absurd. For such a literalist you make a huge stretch there.
Even filthy rich republicans are part of "We The People" whether you like it or not. As such, they are entitled to representation, and to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Further, they are entitled to act in their own best interest, just as everyone in the U.S. is.
Did I deny a republican is a person “entitled to representation, and to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”, do I? No, I oppose anyone having superior rights, power and disproportional representation through corporate power and influence. And you support such inequality and the potential tyranny that always results in such seizure of power.
That’s a mighty big straw man fallacy you got there. Missing the point get’s boring I suppose.
You’re the one holding the artificial construct that corporations are persons “entitled to representation and to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”.
That’s NOT in the Constitution, buddy.
F&B,
Speaking of the missing the point fallacy, you must be ecstatic with your new misrepresentation to add to “you didn’t build your business”. “We all belong to the government" has you wetting your pants, doesn’t it?
I must say that would be a very stupid way for Obama or the DNC to make a point.
Oh, they didn’t?
A statement from Dr. Dan Murrey, the Executive Director of the Charlotte in 2012 Host Committee: "The “Welcome to Charlotte” video was solely produced and paid for by the Host Committee’s New American City Fund, which promotes the city of Charlotte and welcomes our guests. The intent of this video was to tell the story of this region and it is completely unaffiliated with the Obama campaign or the Democratic National Committee."
And what context did you have to exclude to reach such a climax?
“Government’s the only thing we all belong to. We have different churches, different clubs, but we’re together as a part of our city, or our county, or our state – and our nation.”
So you claim to be a Christian yet you don’t belong to a church? Is this true? Then I’m shocked at your shameless posturing.
Dubya, I'm surprised you put so much faith in the stock market
I don’t. Why do you need to misrepresent the facts? The Market contradicts you and supports the argument that the economy is better now than when destroyed by Bush Republican/corpordem policies.
Unemployment numbers are in fact getting better. I showed you the change just between Election Day and Inauguration Day.
Unemployment rate on Election Day 2008 – 6.5%
On Obama’s Inauguration Day - 7.3%
What does that say? It was hitting the fan before Obama took office.
Bush failed and it takes longer to repair than destroy.
Especially when one party’s number one priority is to ensure government failure and refuses to cooperate with the job of governing. Why is the Republican’s priority that of political revenge instead of working to restore jobs?
You really hate facts, don’t you? Like this one you cannot even acknowledge, corporations own the “liberal media”. Let’s see you admit it. Come on, be brave. It’s only the truth.
Cult got your tongue?
The bottom line is, no matter how you slice it or dice it, Obama has Failed.
Yes, you can assert that, as long as you ignore facts. Talk about slicing and dicing.
It is definitely time for a Change.
Back to the same policies devastated economy.
Yes, that’s the ticket.
I'll give you credit for one fact Dubya, you have your democrat talking points down to a tee.
Go ahead, keep blaming Bush and the evil republicans. See how far that gets you on November 6.
The fact is, Obama has failed to fix any problems, real or imagined, with the economy. Blaming Bush does nothing to fix the root cause, which is a massive entitlement burden that has led to massive debt and massive interest payments on that debt.
Romney is the guy who can fix those problems.
Obama has proven that he can't.
F&B,
” your democrat talking points”
Like this?
How much support was offered by Republicans for Obama’s attempt to repair the Bush/GOP/corpo-dem mess?
Or this?
The failure you want to pin on Obama and Democrats is also shared by Republicans.
Do you think I’ll be invited to their next convention for saying these things?
Maybe you do. But then....You’re so detached from reality you MUST blame Obama for everything.
The fact is, Obama has failed to fix any problems
The Market is “fixed” far better than what Bush left. Fact.
The unemployment rate is shrinking. Fact.
Obama’s stimulus, while insufficient for the massive problem left by Republicans and corpo-dems, actually helped.
Roads were paved, jobs were saved, and money was circulated back into the economy. That is how you fix recessions. More facts.
the root cause, which is a massive entitlement burden that has led to massive debt and massive interest payments on that debt.
Wrong again.
The role of Social Security and Medicare in our nation’s ongoing fiscal problems is widely misunderstood and often misrepresented.
One often hears that the growth of spending on big entitlement programs, including Social Security and Medicare, must be reduced. It is true. But it also ignores the fact that, up until now, at least, those two specific programs have not added to annual budget deficits or the national debt.
Instead, taxes paid into these two programs have exceeded spending by a wide margin for decades, reducing the annual budget deficits and cumulative national debt as they are commonly tabulated.
The fact that taxes have been less than spending in all categories except Social Security and Medicare is why the national debt has mushroomed over the past 30 years. If we do not address that fundamental problem, we are not going to solve anything.
So raise the caps on Social Security and Medicare where the elites pay as much a percentage of their income as the rest of us do.
Problem fixed.
No, you want insurance corporations to suck up out tax dollars so they can deliver less health care and less retirement benefits, so CEO’s and shareholders can pocket more cash by charging the public more while they would be receiving less.
Did you forget wars of choice, corporate giveaways like Medicare being forbidden to negotiate drug prices, More tax breaks for Big Oil, etc.
Now those two have dumped a huge portion of the debt, that you don't want the rich to help pay off.
Your entire philosophy is dedicated to ensure more “trickle up” redistribution of wealth to the fat cats. Bottom line.
You’re the one with the delusional mentality that says tax breaks for the rich will pay off the debt and create jobs.
Been there done that. It failed. And what’s the GOP solution? More failure by tax cuts and deregulation. More ripping off the public through privatized services that should be provided by the government for we the people.
The GOP exists primarily to redistribute wealth upward. Job one for the Greedy Old Plutocrats.
And as their minion, feeding the greed is job one for you as well.
until it didn’t.
Exactly.
Dubya, you really have yourself on much too high of a pedestal. You can't seem to differentiate between your opinion and "facts".
Example, one of your democrat talking points: Medicare and drug prices. Medicare does not negotiate for prices of drugs or other medical services. It sets prices. Of course some democrats want Medicare to set drug prices. The problem is that if Medicare does that, the private sector insurance will have to make up the difference, thus raising insurance premiums on everyone else. Democrats just don't seem to be able to fathom the consequences of their actions.
You post one fallacy after another just like that one, and then you label them as "fact", as if calling them a fact makes it so. Just like people buy into fectcheck.org's left-wing bias just because they call their website "factcheck".
There are hundreds of billions spent on various entitlement programs not included under the SSA and Medicare umbrellas.
Raising the cap on Medicare and Social Security should be done, in fact, remove the cap completely. But this won't produce enough additional income to solve SSA's financial problems. In addition to this, at some point in time the retirement age will have to be raised.
Dubya: "privatized services that should be provided by the government"
This is the root cause of the failure of countless socialist governments for decades. Private enterprise ALWAYS provides services more efficiently and of higher quality than the government.
F&B,
Now you’re just babbling, with the exception of raising caps and retirement age, where you and I agree.
“Corporate giveaways like Medicare being forbidden to negotiate drug prices” is a fact. That prohibition is written into the law. The VA is allowed to negotiate. Medicare is not. These are the facts, chum.
“It sets prices”...Yes, based on averages of what the pharmaceutical companies charge. And it is another fact that drug companies charge significantly higher prices in the US than elsewhere.
You offer us some doozies, from your unsubstantiated accusations of fallacies to your grand sweeping inanity, “Private enterprise ALWAYS provides services more efficiently and of higher quality than the government.”
ALWAYS??
My, you are quite the absolutist. Tell that to cops. Tell that to firemen. Tell that to soldiers. Tell that to public school teachers. Tell that to every government worker you want to punish.
Please explain how the public will receive more efficient, and higher quality, privatized health care and retirement benefits after the insurance companies skim off their cut?
Again you seem to expect others to blindly accept your unfounded and undocumented assertions as fact. That only works within your cult.
Why don’t you explain why factcheck,org is left-wing biased? Or is it sufficient to assert any disagreement or fact contrary to your ideology is “bias”?
Yeah, that’s it. No wonder your party demonizes educators and journalists.
Short quiz:
Corporations own the “liberal” media.
True or False?
Let's see if I can lock up comment #100...
Jefferson's Guardian had this to say:"You're the one, along with Free0352, who continually claims we're against "evil" corporations. You know, as well as I, that we've never labeled corporations as "evil". Far from it."
I thought there must be an example on his own blog that refutes this, but his statement is technically true. I couldn't find a single example of him calling corporations evil.
In fact, Jefferson is a big supporter of corporations. For example, he adoringly claims that corporations own the election process and shape elections, employ strategies to increase their power and hold the economy hostage, they take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes, they profit from war, and they dominate our culture: politically, economically, and socially.
And my favorite, Jefferson supports this Occupy Wall Street statement of values: "We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments."
No, he doesn't call them evil. Anyone who says so is a liar.
From Dave, "We all know corporate influence on government is real, and representation is disproportionately in favor of Big Money."
No one on the right will deny this. That's why we think union leadership power needs to be diminished. They are the real big money in our election process. Naturally, you don't see it on the left.
"Now run along and support the guy who believes God is watching us from planet Kolob."
Dave, I'm an atheist and even I find your religious bigotry offensive. Don't worry, I'm not offended, you're just being offensive.
Where do all these trolls come from? Dave, you must have the gift. ;)
Daisy, you're closer to a troll than anyone here who offers opinions and discussion. Simply leveling ad hominem attacks when you don't have something better to say is just sad.
OK, Dubya, I'll bite . . . the "liberal" media ARE big scary evil corporations, therefore, in a sense, they are "owned" by corporations. And these corporations are owned and run by people, most of whom are liberals. They use their corporations to advance their own liberal agendas as much as they possibly can. Some are so full of Kool-Ade that they constantly set their own agendas based on what Obama and his minions indicate. For example, even today, Andrea Mitchell (NBC) tweeted that it was storming in Charlotte, but it wasn't - forecast is for 0% chance of rain, skies are blue, clear, and sunny. But the media had to protect the Obama camp's Lie that Obama's speech was moved from a 70,000+ seat stadium (which they would not be able to fill) to a 23,000 seat indoor venue (to get away from the fake rain). Of course, there are millions of other examples just like this one.
Does that answer your question?
Sometimes the Truth is a bitter pill, especially for socialists, but private industry IS more effective and efficient than government.
Factcheck.org is funded by a branch of the Annenberg Foundation that has close ties to Bill Ayers and Barack Obama. Ayers and Obama worked together in Chicago for a number of years in the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. Factcheck is essentially run by the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania. The Director of this agency is the liberal extremist Kathleen Jamieson who has authored hit pieces against the conservative media. And she effectively controls "Factcheck.org". Also, just look at the list of contributors. Virtually all of them are from decidedly leftist organizations such as CNN, NY Times, USA Today, AP, etc.
More Details...
As far as the God comment goes, I am never offended by ignorance.
Insurance companies have competition and therefore an incentive to reduce operating costs and be more efficient, the government does not. And, the amount the insurance companies "skim off the top" will be much less than the government will skim.
Now, explain why you think the government will do a better job (for the first time in history) at something (i.e. Health Care) that should be in the private sector.
Heathen Republican: "And my favorite, Jefferson supports this Occupy Wall Street statement of values: 'We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments.'"
And they don't?
Gee, Heathen, how many days has it been since I posted that statement claiming I've never said corporations are "evil"? Have you been relentlessly scouring my blog since then? [LOL]
FandB: "For example, even today, Andrea Mitchell (NBC) tweeted that it was storming in Charlotte, but it wasn't - forecast is for 0% chance of rain, skies are blue, clear, and sunny. But the media had to protect the Obama camp's Lie that Obama's speech was moved from a 70,000+ seat stadium (which they would not be able to fill)"
And you call me a "conspiracy theorist"? [LOL]
You're over the top, man.
For your information, it has been warm and humid (and stormy) over most of the mid-Atlantic the last few days. Charlotte's weather is similar to where I live.
Again, you're too much...
FandB: "Virtually all of them are from decidedly leftist organizations such as CNN, NY Times, USA Today, AP, etc."
More over-the-top hyperbole! (At least that's how I interpret it.)
Are you able to type this crap with a straight face?
Come on Jefferson, is that the best you've got? I hope just repeating "over the top" over and over again isn't your 'A' game. At least Dubya comes up with creative lies and insults.
;-)
FandB: You continue to fabricate your own reality about the same points, over and over again. We've already been over your "liberal media" delusion.
It's Dave's blog. I'm being polite and allowing him the privilege of stomping your ridiculous half-truths into the ground. Feel free to visit my blog. I'm sure Dave will extend the same courtesy towards me. ;-)
Daisy,
These fellows are not trolls. They are here to present their views and criticize mine, and I welcome that. They are quite decent for their own part, compared to what we see elsewhere.
I’ve had trolls here before. One especially nasty type loved to spew personal jabs along with the rest of his hateful diatribes. He would never answer a question or contribute appropriate dialogue. That only wastes all of our time, so behavior at that level is unwelcome.
It’s understandable that one could view our Righties as trolls, but since these guys are the more civil and polite representatives of their ideology, I welcome their contributions. They shed light on their belief systems and indicate how information must be filtered, diluted and twisted to conform to the ideology.
Note how such treatment is given to my factual statement, "We all know corporate influence on government is real, and representation is disproportionately in favor of Big Money."
HR gives it his best spin to circumvent reality, “No one on the right will deny this. That's why we think union leadership power needs to be diminished. They are the real big money in our election process. Naturally, you don't see it on the left.”
Now isn’t that special?
F&B insists that “We the people” is actually “we the corporations”, and corporations are meant to influence government. His indoctrination tells him corporate media is owned by liberal socialist commies out to destroy America.
F&B informs us, “Virtually all of them are from decidedly leftist organizations such as CNN, NY Times, USA Today, AP, etc.”.
This is a beautiful testimonial to the power of their propaganda. As with a cult, the truth can only come from the authoritarian leadership. Journalists, scientists and educators are to be considered hostile forces of the great commie conspiracy. We are to trust only FOX(R) and Limbaugh.
HR is a bit smoother and less histrionic, but the core of their beliefs is always revealed.
They believe in the power of wealth in the “might makes right” sense. It is a reverence of wealth and the wealthy that is very much religious in nature. The rich are the “master race” in their view, the people that really matter. And everything that allows wealth to trickle up is what they promote. Their bottom line is always exactly in sync with everything in the agenda of economic elites.
This is the root of their powerful anti-democracy crusade. Wealth makes right, therefore wealth must rule.
Government should listen to and obey corporations. Unions must be destroyed. Voter numbers must be suppressed.
But you already know this.
Thanks for reading.
--
JG,
Please have at it. Why should I have all the fun? There’s plenty to share, and after all, that’s what we socialists like to do. ;-)
HR,
The good news is now you have someone to chide for the “evil corporations” line. The bad news is he’s a fellow Republican. Maybe you two can sort that out.
Now let’s have a look at my factual statement and your...ah, shall we say, conclusions.
"We all know corporate influence on government is real, and representation is disproportionately in favor of Big Money."
First you said, “No one on the right will deny this.” Are you sure about that? I wish that were true. Reasonable discussion could then take place.
But alas, reasonableness is tossed out the window with your assertion, “They (unions) are the real big money in our election process.”
I have to wonder what you mean by the “real big money” since corporate money is just as real and much bigger.
Perhaps that’s why we on the left “don’t see it”?
Next you deem this is offensive religious bigotry:
"Now run along and support the guy who believes God is watching us from planet Kolob.”
If mentioning facts is offensive bigotry then I stand guilty.
Personally I have no antipathy for Mormons, Muslims, or any other people of faith, including you and your own cult like faith in the righteousness of wealth and the wealthy. I harbor no ill feelings for anyone because of their beliefs.
Actions and consequences are something else to consider.
Romney’s pandering to the hateful ignorance of birthers would be far more in line with bigotry, I’d say. Mitt the Snip’s bullying, taking down, and cutting a students hair reeks of bigotry as well.
It’s not his magic underwear, or belief in his God-world Kolob, or whatever else in his brain that matters, it is his character, his attitude and his behavior towards others that I judge.
Look at the wild cult conspiracies imagined by poor F&B. I could just say he’s a crazy fool to rant about a “liberal” corporate media; that advertises corporate products, and takes corporate money for political ads endorsing corporate friendly candidates. And then there’s the diabolical secret conspiracy of evil climate scientists, with their socialist thermometers, who dare to disagree with the renowned climate scientist, and expert in all things, Rush Limbaugh.
But he’s not crazy and not even a fool. He is, however a true believer. And I can’t hate a person for his beliefs. I will tell him his beliefs are false though. It’s the humane compassionate thing to do. If I were a bigot I wouldn’t bother him with that much attention, I’d only make accusations and spew hate like certain trolls have done here.
So go ahead and call me an offensive bigot. That does nothing to make your case, nor diminish mine.
”Don't worry, I'm not offended, you're just being offensive.”
Then who is offended? If no one is offended how can I be offensive?
No matter. The most brilliant political and artistic people throughout history have been called offensive.
I stand in good company, and wear that accusation proudly, you heretic. ;-)
F&B,
You picked a poor example of the great "Liberal commie socialist media" conspiracy.
You don't live in Charlotte, do you?
It rained there last night. The Weather Channel radar showed rain from 10:30 to 11:00.
Or....The Weather Channel is really the "Weathermen Channel" and they faked the whole thing.
You're a treasure, F&B.
Dubya, here are comments from a number of people in Charlotte, NC during the DNC. No rain.
Maybe you mis-interpreted your Weather Channel map.
Also,your comments regarding Mormonism and Kolob are typical liberal Lies on that subject too. For those who want to know what Mormonism really says about Kolob, check the following link.
Book of Abraham
You'll find that Kolob is a planet that is used as a reference to explain His perception of time. For example, God describes a day as one rotation of Kolob, and notes that it is equivalent to a thousand years on earth.
It does Not say that God lives on Kolob. Just another typical liberal Lie.
I'm not Mormon, but I believe it is cowardly and just plain wrong to try to ridicule someone else's religion - Even if you hate their politics.
Either way, democrats have proven that they have no regard for Christian religions.
Catholics came under attack many years ago from the left. Now it is Mormons. If you are Christian, your religion will come under attack by the liberals as well.
It is OK if you're an atheist or a Muslim, but not OK if you're a Christian.
In your haste to bash Mormons, Dubya, I noticed you forgot to answer my one little question:
Now, explain why you think the government will do a better job (for the first time in history) at something (i.e. Health Care) that should be in the private sector.
Thanks.
F&B,
It would depend what part of Charlotte the person was in. It’s true rain didn’t fall on the entire city. But it did in the northwest part and Mt Holly.
Cells passed between Kannopolis and China Grove to the Northeast and at Mt. Holly to the immediate Northwest 10:30. And a cell was between Knob Creek and Double Shoals at 11pm to the west.
Cancelling due to rain in the forecast was justified. It’s up to you to do the math, and show us, to make whatever other case you want of it.
F&B, have a seat. Listen. There is no planet Kolob...at least known to science. I know, I know. Scientists are part of an evil conspiracy, like the liberal corporate media.
This is the origin of the Kolob myth:
And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest
You’re right:
It does Not say that God lives on Kolob
But it’s very close in his neighborhood where he keeps an eye on us. Who’s to say he doesn’t pop over now and again to make sure the place is fit for residency?
As I said, I harbor no ill feelings for anyone because of their beliefs. Actions and consequences are something else to consider.
”Catholics came under attack many years ago from the left.”
Oh, really? Is that who those WASP’s were?
democrats have proven that they have no regard for Christian religions
Yeah, maybe to you they’ve been “attacked” by Leftist thugs. They were lynching them. Burning crosses, and painting swastikas on their churches. Oh, wait, that’s what conservative white male Christians did to blacks.
But go ahead and wear the persecution shroud that is the curse of certain conservative white male Christians. For certain conservative white male Christians and only certain conservative white male Christians may dictate a woman’s reproductive choice. Conservative white male Christians and only conservative white male Christians may run our country. I guess it’s their cross to bear, the white man’s burden. Female and minority tokens are helpful, but it is clear who’s in charge.
That’s a particularly tough job considering their top priorities are unseating a black president, birth certificate jokes allowed, and redistributing wealth up to the elites.
The servants of Mammon love white male Christians, as they rub their hands together, looking down their noses from the heights of their Mammonite temples on Wall Street. They know all about their subservient and obedient conservative white male Christians. They know just how to mobilize the conservative white male Christians’ resentments into support for the Party of Mammon. They are scooping up the wealth and consolidating power as they know they couldn’t do it without their conservative white male Christians.
And conservative white male Christians have their resentments so aroused they would take what I’m saying as an attack on their religion, when it is clearly not.
It is an attack on their masters, the servants of Mammon.
This is a question?
Now, explain why you think the government will do a better job (for the first time in history) at something (i.e. Health Care) that should be in the private sector.
Looks like a command, and a loaded one at that, with false assertions and opinion.
Just a couple of quick comments...
Dubya, you know as well as I (and everyone else with a mind of their own) that the DNC moved Obama's speech because they knew full well that he would not fill up a 70,000+ seat outdoor stadium. "The One"s demi-god rockstar image is gone. The fact that Obama held a fundraiser yesterday in the rain erases any possibility that the speech was moved indoors out of concern for his supporters.
I accept your concession on the Kolob comments. But, in fact, you do have a tendency to try to ridicule others' religions, especially Mormons and Catholics.
Of course wealthy white Christians embrace Christianity. And rightly or wrongly, most wealthy folks in this country these days are white Christians. The left tries to demonize them because they are wealthy, and white, and Christians. That behavior smacks of class warfare, racism, bigotry, and the spirit of anti-Christ.
It's bright and sunny here, low 70's with a light breeze. If Obama has anything scheduled around here, he'd better cancel it quick, there's not a cloud in the sky.
:-)
F&B,
you know as well as I
Impossible. You have ALL the Right answers.
Here’s another factor. The tickets were free, unlike your Decider who required “loyalty oaths” for admission to events.
Think about that for a minute if you’re able.
Suppose the campaign was informed a hundred Klan members got tickets and planned on disrupting the event. Impossible? Not at all. The radical Right urged their dupes to disrupt representatives local events over the health care debate.
Thanks for fulfilling my little prophecy:
And conservative white male Christians have their resentments so aroused they would take what I’m saying as an attack on their religion, when it is clearly not.
It is an attack on their masters, the servants of Mammon.
I said you attempt to ridicule others' religion, I didn't say "attack." What are these comments if not attempts at ridicule:
"But it’s very close in his neighborhood where he keeps an eye on us. Who’s to say he doesn’t pop over now and again to make sure the place is fit for residency? "
And
"Have you seen the gold tablets in the magic hat?"
And
"Nobody’s ever asked to see MY magic underwear"
And many other examples.
Why would democrat Klan members attempt to disrupt the DNC? After all, the original targets of the KKK were Republicans.
Dubya: "Impossible. You have ALL the Right answers." --- Yes, thank you, I know. But sometimes you're right too, Dubya . . . when you agree with me.
:-)
F&B,
Yes, I am right when I agree with you. And when I disagree with you.
Some of those were hypothetical comparisons to Romney’s pandering to the hate and bigotry of birthers. Context does matter, despite your “You didn’t build your business” BS.
Dogma is either factual and reality based, or something subject to ridicule. You ridicule liberals’ beliefs, or even thoughtful and true statements, all the time.
I take no offense. I don’t know anyone who does.
I’d bet many Californians take offense at Utah Mormons’ intrusion on their democracy on the ballot proposals.
As I said, I harbor no ill feelings for anyone because of their beliefs. Actions and consequences are something else to consider.
the original targets of the KKK were Republicans
So the Klan is pro-Obama now?
This is history and you know it. Consider why you need to cling to outdated facts to support your position.
Dubya: "cling to outdated facts to support your position" --- My comment makes as much sense as your speculation that the DNC moved Obama's speech to a small venue due to threats from the Klan.
Dubya: "Dogma is either factual and reality based, or something subject to ridicule." --- That is completely non-factual in and of itself. Most religious dogma is based on basic tenets of that particular faith, not "reality based" tenets of the faith.
For example: Buddha achieved enlightenment through meditation and fighting armies of demons, among other things. Is this "reality based" or is it "subject to ridicule"?
Example: Muhammad began receiving his "enlightenment" when the Angel Gabriel appeared to him in a cave. Is this "reality based" or is it "subject to ridicule"?
Example: Atheist dogma asserts that teaching Christianity to children is harmful, even abusivexist. Is this "reality based"
F&B,
Dubya: "cling to outdated facts to support your position" --- My comment makes as much sense as your speculation that the DNC moved Obama's speech to a small venue due to threats from the Klan.
And that’s the point.
Speculation.
That’s all you got. That’s all I got. And it is of no matter at all. Rain was in the area. Period.
If you need to obsess with that meaningless issue, then do so on your own or in your echo chamber.
Again you miss the broader point. There could have some tea cult group, or militia nuts, or God knows who scooping up tickets. They were free. And no “loyalty oaths” were demanded for attendance.
The fact is we don’t know anything other than the reason they gave. If the Secret Service warned of trouble, they wouldn’t broadcast the problem, now would they? And besides, it rained that night, as forecasted.
When you "cling to outdated facts to support your position" you’re not presenting a good assessment.
Either everything is subject to ridicule, or nothing is.
It’s called freedom of speech.
It’s mocking, or making fun of. It’s making light of. It’s joking, It’s kidding. It’s all offensive to someone. Too many people take too much offense at too little.
Generally, the less tolerant they are, the more likely they take offense. Some are so intolerant of others and so offended, they want to kill the person for blasphemy.
I can think of a couple religions with that tradition.
Buddha, or Jesus, and maybe even Muhammad, would smile at those ridiculing him, for he would know they would be the ridiculous ones.
And perhaps I’m a ridiculous one too... Sometimes I am, sometimes I aint.
Here’s one for you.
I think religions should be a subject taught more in public schools. Students should have at least a basic understanding of the major faiths to properly relate to the rest of the world, and fellow Americans.
How is that a bad thing?
In high school we had a union public school teacher, yes that’s right, who assigned us to read the Bible as literature.
Some people ridiculed that. I didn’t, but I didn’t take offense or get angry at them for doing it, either.
FandB: The definition of Dogma (which, if I'm not mistaken, is the key word you're ridiculing Dave Dubya about):
"A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true."
Dave purportedly said: "Dogma is either factual and reality based, or something subject to ridicule."
If I, or Dave, don't believe a particular dogma that's supposedly "incontrovertibly true" (says who?), why isn't it open to criticism (or even ridicule)?
By the way, your examples citing the Buddha and Mohammad were not examples of dogma; they were purely matters of faith.
Big difference.
Jefferson, I don't know where you cherry-picked your deinition of dogma. I looked at several definitions of dogma and none were as narrow as the one you 'quoted'.
From the Free Online Dictionary:
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them
When dealing with religion, the teachings generally include the origin of the information, i.e. how it links to their God or gods. These teachings fall under the definition of dogma, as they relate to faith. How Buddha and Mohammad obtained their knowledge or enlightenment is an important part of the respective dogma or doctrine of each faith.
Dubya and Jefferson both have indicated over this thread that they believe it is fine to ridicule Mitt Romney's Mormon faith, but it is unjustifiably wrong to question Obama's birth certificate.
It is clear who you both are worshipping.
That was my point from the beginning.
Thank You.
Q.E.D.
F&B,
It is clear who you both are worshipping.
At least it’s not Mammon, like your Party.
First the “mocking” you accuse me of is completely in the context of Romney’s race baiting birther crap. My post is about that, and I threw out some things for context that would offend conservatives too blind to see my point that Romney was both inappropriate and lame. So I tossed out inappropriate and lame bits that you swallowed out of context.
Besides, we are free to ridicule anything, no matter what anti-free speech crap you want to spout. Deal with it. If Limbaugh can call a college student a slut on the air, your standards are lame indeed. If Pat Robertson wants to go on TV and blame 9-11 and hurricanes on gays, you better damn well expect ridicule.
Second. Obama’s birth certificate is real. He is US born. Any jokes or comments supporting the racist lies is lame and inappropriate.
Note I’m not offended. Just calling it what it is.
How about planet Kolob for comparison?
Get real now.
Dubya: "no matter what anti-free speech crap you want to spout" --- I have never, never objected to anyone's right to free speech. I fully support that right for all parts of the political spectrum and everywhere else. But free speech carries the burden of taking responsibility for your comments, and you are not immune to being taken to task when you claim that right but try to deny it to others.
Dubya: "Besides, we are free to ridicule anything" --- Yes. Yes you are. And so is Mitt Romney.
Dubya: "Obama’s birth certificate is real" --- I haven't seen Obama's real birth certificate (or Romney's for that matter) and neither have you. You have no more real information about that than you have about whether Mohammad actually met an Angel in that cave or a demon, or whether there was ever even a cave at all.
BTW, there is nothing 'racist' about questioning Obama's birth certificate. Maybe every candidate should have to prove he meets the Constitutional minimum requirements to be President before his/her name can be added to the ballot.
Whether she is still a "college student" at 30 or not is irrelevant. A 30 year old single woman who spends $3000 a year on birth control IS a slut, that could be the very definition of slut. Deal with it. That's over $8 a day, she must be having sex 4 or 5 times a day to run up that kind of bill.
Note I’m not offended. Just calling it what it is.
How about I'll call your planet Kolob and raise you one Pascal's Wager.
FandB: "Jefferson, I don't know where you cherry-picked your deinition [sic] of dogma. I looked at several definitions of dogma and none were as narrow as the one you 'quoted'."
It came straight from Google:
dog·ma/ˈdôgmə/
Noun:
A principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true: "the Christian dogma of the Trinity".
Don't like it? Try these others. The essence is exactly the same.
1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet
b : a code of such tenets
c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church
Gee, they're exactly like the definitions you offered!
"Dubya and Jefferson both have indicated over this thread that they believe it is fine to ridicule Mitt Romney's Mormon faith, but it is unjustifiably wrong to question Obama's birth certificate."
No, there's quite a difference. Obama's birth certificate has been offered and proven valid. And although I, personally, have never ridiculed Mormonism on this blog or on any other, Romney's faith (and that of anybody else) is just that: Faith. The tenets of the Mormon faith have never been proven. It's based upon faith, and faith alone. And not only is it based upon faith (and faith alone), but it's based upon the faith of its adherents.
Obama's birth certificate is not a document based upon faith. It was produced and certified by a governing body on this planet, and within this dimension -- not Kolob.
FandB: "It is clear who you both are worshipping [sic]."
It is?
Please share.
F&B,
you claim that right but try to deny it to others
This is yet another false accusation.
Understand this. I don’t deny Romney’s or anyone else’s right to spew hate. I called it lame and inappropriate and said, “Making light of a falsehood, one manufactured and propelled by racist hate that could only appeal to bigots, is outside the bounds of decency.”
"Obama’s birth certificate is real"
You have no more real information about that than you have about whether Mohammad actually met an Angel in that cave or a demon, or whether there was ever even a cave at all.
LOL!
A 30 year old single woman who spends $3000 a year on birth control IS a slut, that could be the very definition of slut. Deal with it. That's over $8 a day, she must be having sex 4 or 5 times a day to run up that kind of bill.
Thanks, Rush. How humble, understanding and compassionate of you. But not very Christian, is it? “Judge not lest ye be judged”.
And not very informed either. You don’t know what you’re talking about. That high cost is not Flukes, but that of women with gynecological conditions that are expensive to treat.
Not that you care. You’re just looking for a reason to hate someone.
It is your own mind that needs to frame the entire issue in sex and your radical, intolerant, hateful “morality”.
How about I'll call your planet Kolob and raise you one Pascal's Wager.
Wager all you want. Just know this. Satan believes in God. Hell is full of cruel “true believers”, hypocrites who hated their fellow men and woman like you do. How easily you ignore your new commandment in John 13:34:
”A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
I know of many hippies and atheists who do better at that than your fellow religious hypocrites.
Now go back to your cult and forget that commandment, as you worship the Free Market, strip food and health care from the poor, and support the Mammonite Guardians Of Plutocracy.
Jefferson: "Obama's birth certificate has been offered and proven valid" --- Like I told Dubya, I have never seen the birth certificate and neither have you. You are basing your belief on your faith that the people making the judgement are not lying, i.e. that what they are telling you it is true, and based on your faith in them you believe it. Millions of others believe they are lying.
Saying that the "birth certificate" that has been posted on the internet is legitimate is part of your dogma.
So your belief in the veracity of a digital image of a birth certificate is no more or less legitimate than a Mormon's belief in Kolob.
You know who you are worshipping as well as I do, and he is not a god.
JG,
You know who you are worshipping as well as I do, and he is not a god
“He”? I guess that would rule out your worshipping the Goddess. I wonder how F&B knows...
It is easy to misquote or mis-construe the passages of the Bible and try to twist them to suit your own ends. Reading the words is quite different than really understanding what they mean. Part of loving each other includes a concept quite foreign to left-wingers such as yourself. That concept is that Loving includes trying to help each other change behaviors and ways of thinking that are sinful or lead to sin. Read the Bible again, Jesus devotes a great deal of time to changing what he perceives as sinful behavior. This is part of what he later called (as you quoted) Loving his disciples and the people of Israel. Blind acceptance or approval of immoral behavior does not constitute "love".
F&B:
It is easy to misquote or mis-construe the passages of the Bible...
...And even easier to ignore them.
It’s not easy to love people is it?
That concept is that Loving includes trying to help each other
It’s far easier to call some woman you don’t know a slut while wrapping yourself in pious self-righteousness.
She really doesn’t need yours, and Limbaugh’s, kind of “help” if that’s what you call it.
FandB: "I have never seen the birth certificate and neither have you."
Agreeably, I have not "personally" seen it, other than a reproduction on the Internet. Based upon my own, and hundreds of others I've seen during my lifetime, it looks legitimate to me.
"You are basing your belief on your faith that the people making the judgement are not lying, i.e. that what they are telling you it is true..."
That is true. But I also have no reason to believe they are lying. Maybe I shouldn't believe I was born in the United States. Likewise, maybe you shouldn't believe you were. But I have faith that you're rational and intelligent enough to believe in the legitimacy of birth certificate records. I do.
Let me ask you this: How do you know that the priest or minister that performed the marriage ceremony for you and your wife was really an ordained minister, and was also licensed by the state to marry the both of you? Did you view his or her actual certificates? If so, how are you sure they weren't forged? For that matter, how are you sure that your children are really yours? Even if you were present at their births, how do you know they weren't switched later?
We can certainly question each and every action that confronts us in our lives. Unless I see a motive -- and there's a belief that someone greatly benefits from leading me (or us) astray -- I choose not to.
"So your belief in the veracity of a digital image of a birth certificate is no more or less legitimate than a Mormon's belief in Kolob."
Possibly so, but which example borders on the irrational and which one doesn't? I don't think I have to answer this for you.
Personally, I could care a less what Mormons believe, or any religious faction for that matter, as long as they don't attempt to force their beliefs on me.
FandB: "You know who you are worshipping as well as I do, and he is not a god."
You can't possibly know this. Nevertheless, I'm waiting for you to tell me...
I could care a less what Mormons believe, or any religious faction for that matter, as long as they don't attempt to force their beliefs on me
Now if only liberals would assimilate the same belief system as to their political beliefs. I'm sick of liberals demanding people pay tax rates they won't pay themselves.
Free,
F&B will be glad to know an atheist shares his hatred for a woman neither of you know.
you want me to foot the bill for your sex life?
Now that’s hysterical paranoia. Women happen to have contraception covered by insurance, not you, pal.
Not a single hair off your ass. It’s really none of your business, except the hate part, I guess.
We want rich liberals to pay the same tax rate as rich conservatives.
Fair?
I don't hate Sandra Fluke, Dubya. I have no feelings about her at all. Especially not in the way you hate conservatives who have the gall to voice their own opinion while you regurgitate democrat talking points.
Ms. Fluke is free to do whatever she wants, it is totally her business. Just don't expect the administartors of a Catholic University to violate their consciences and pay for her abortifacients.
And don't even bother with the tired old line that the University doesn't pay for them, the insurance company does. That argument is laughable and has been destroyed repeatedly by conservatives. It is obvious that whoever pays for all or part of the insurance premium is paying for the abortifacients.
Very good point Free, liberals live to try to force others to act according to the liberals' narrow-minded belief system.
I agree completely that liberals and conservatives should pay the same tax rate. In fact, everyone in the U.S. should pay the same tax rate. A flat tax rate is a great idea Dubya, how conservative of you!
F&B,
I don't hate, ...you hate”
So “slut” is term of endearment to you guys?
Show me the hate I said that comes close to yours, pal. Ask any woman if there is a more hateful word to call them.
Do it.
The contraception is offered at no additional cost. You and Free and the University and the Church don’t pay an extra cent for contraception.
But my, how you whine with the outrage of one done grievous harm.
live to try to force others to act according to the liberals' narrow-minded belief system.
Like Fluke and students have to act according to the Pope?
Free,
Why are they special?
They are called women. They are physically different from men with different health issues.
We get treated for prostate disease, right?
Why are men so special?
If you think it’s only about condoms, you’re an idiot. A very hateful one at that.
But don’t change, F&B likes you that way. ;-)
First, I'm not going to backtrack through old posts to show the many examples where you have referred to various conservatives by terms much worse than 'slut'. Your legacy of hate speaks for itself.
Dubya: "The contraception is offered at no additional cost. You and Free and the University and the Church don’t pay an extra cent for contraception." --- This is a ridiculous assertion that I addressed before you made it. Everything insurance companies pay for is paid for using money they have as a result of collecting premiums. Saying that it doesn't cost any more is naive beyond belief, and a completely empty and baseless argument. If you really don't understand this then your school(s) owe you a refund and a big apology.
Dubya: "Like Fluke and students have to act according to the Pope?" --- No, not at all. Like I said before, she is free to do as she chooses. But don't expect Catholics or the Catholic Church to act according to the whims of Ms. Fluke.
Catholics view the use of abortifacients as murder of innocent unborn babies. Neither you, Fluke, Obama, nor anyone else can force me to pay for the murder of totally defenseless unborn babies. Obama's regime better watch it, they are getting very close to crossing the line on God-given First Amendment inalienable rights. The Catholic Bishops of America have already said they will not pay for this, and I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that they are dead serious about it. If Obama wants a showdon with the Catholic Church, he will get it.
There is no greater form of hate than to support the murder of innocent unborn babies.
F&B,
Oh boy, there you go again. I'm beginning to think there's hate behind all your accusations.
not going to backtrack through old posts to show the many examples... Your legacy of hate speaks for itself.
You guys love to spew accusations of hate and other evils, but fail to base them on reality. Then you hide behind your next accusation.
Lame.
But don't expect Catholics or the Catholic Church to act according to the whims of Ms. Fluke.
They didn’t. They don’t. And they won’t... act according to whims of Ms. Fluke. Not any different in any way. No difference. None. Yours would be a ridiculous assertion, that such is possible.
No Catholic was injured. No Catholic was forced to buy contraceptives, or deprived of rights. No frickin possible harm to any person, yet a service to women’s health.
Rules that men make up, and men enforce. She was denied a hearing by a Congressional committee of only men, and invited men. That would sort of bother me if I were a woman. How would you like the tables turned? If you whine and squeal over something that costs you nothing and does you no harm, just imagine what we’d hear if the situation were reversed.
Your bloody war was denounced by the Pope, and unimaginable slaughter and suffering resulted. I am still paying for that, by the way.
What suffering are you being forced to pay for?
Make you a deal. How about me and everyone against the war pay for women’s health, while you tough guys go pay for the war?
Fair enough?
I have never supported an abortion, so shut up with that false accusation too.
Lame. Very lame.
How about me and everyone against the war pay for women’s health, while you tough guys go pay for the war?
Deal. But I highly doubt your side would EVER go for it. We've been trying to make social security optional for 70 years, and you've fought us tooth and nail every step of the way as you know it will die the second that opting out is an option. Its all talk from you, but I'm dead serious.
I'd also like to add the suffering of this war has been borne 4000 miles away... which was the whole idea. Better there than here.
And as to what day it is.
Free,
Deal. Social Security is another matter. Making social security optional would be disastrous to millions. Just Imagine the Republican Administration dealing with millions more needing foodstamps and shelter than now. “Die sooner you leeching old bastards”.
If Americans were responsible, and could afford to save for their retirement, you might have something to go on. How much you got saved up if you become disabled? Oh, that’s right you’re socialized already.
F&B,
Cute. So how about you tell us again what Iraq had to do with 9-11, and I’ll tell you the Bush Administration was warned, repeatedly it turns out, about AQ’s intention to attack the US. And they did nothing, because they were hell bent on invading Iraq.
Free0352: "I'd also like to add the suffering of this war has been borne 4000 miles away... which was the whole idea. Better there than here."
By "war", are you referring to the fake "war on terrorism"?
The cost of suffering and lost liberties, not to mention a mountain of debt, has been borne by every American. The killing of innocents overseas defending their homeland from invading armies and mercenaries, I'll agree, has been borne by those who happened to be the wrong color, and who happened to be sitting over millions of barrels of oil or tons of valuable minerals. That's their only "crime".
Here's today's multi-billion dollar question: What happened at 5:20 p.m., eleven years ago?
Hint: It never happened before, and it has never happened since.
If Americans were responsible, and could afford to save for their retirement, you might have something to go on
Most Americans do just that, but because of a handful that don't, you're more than willing to tax my generation even further into debt so you don't have to work past 65? Well I'm sorry, but I have my own problems and the geriatrics of the world can go fuck themselves. Grow up flower power generation and stop leeching off your kids. You had your whole lives, and you screwed it up. Now you want to use the power of law and screw ours up too. Fuck that. Work till you drop, I don't give a fuck. Not one single solitary fuck.
And its enormously funny you preach your democracy crap, and then use the power of government to put a gun to an entire generations head and force it into a program you, yourself acknowledge they'd abandon at the speed of light if given the opportunity. Oh how freedom loving of you - to be so charitable to those "irresponsible" (your words, not mine) people with other people's money. How magnanimous for you. I bet it kept you up all night deciding how much of other people's money you did jack and shit to earn should be spent helping those poor, sad, irresponsible drains on society.
God forbid they act like grown adults and take care of themselves or **gasp!** suffer the consequences of their poor choices. I mean, people would then be "on their own" and we can't have people running their own lives now can we? They are far too stupid to live up to your liberal, socialist utopian ideal. Better to force people at literally gun point to fund it. That sure is Democracy baby.
As for the war on terrorism Jeff, it was so worth it just to kill all those dirt balls. Your welcome.
Free:
We feel your rage. I bet it was the “you’re socialized already” thing that lit your fuse.
Grow up flower power generation and stop leeching off your kids
Well guess what kiddo. We’ve been paying for our benefits longer than you’ve been whining.
And we get your “you’re on your own” ideology. Most of us happen to reject it.
But hang tough, cowboy, you’ll show ‘em.
And if not, we Boomers will continue to pay for your medical bills and pension.
Thank you for your service.
Most of us happen to reject it.
Yet you admit if given the option, people would run from Social Security. So I guess no, they don't reject it. You admit it even. You're confusing charity with extortion again.
PS-
All the boomers ever gave us was rampant drug addiction, 15 trillion in debt we'll be paying off our entire lives, a 55% divorce rate, and the aids virus.
Free,
You’re confusing taxes for Constitutional General Welfare for extortion again.
I shudder to think what your generation will leave. I pity those who follow your video game generation’s glazed-eyed view of a corporatist Brave New World.
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